Since the weather forecast and the weather here in Thibodaux was less than encouraging until the latter part of the morning, I started and arrived late at the School for Ministry session at Christ Church Cathedral, led by Bishop Michael Smith of the Episcopal Diocese of North Dakota. Bishop Smith is one of the candidates for the office of bishop in the Episcopal Diocese of Louisiana. For background on how Bishop Smith and I "met" online and then in person, here's my original post on the bishop's candidacy.
Bishop Smith was kind and patient with me about being late and about talking far too much. Oh dear! Pity the poor bishop and the others in the class having to listen to me rattle on at length. Since I missed the session last night and was two hours late this morning, I will surely not do justice in what I write of the sessions.
The Ridley-Cambridge Draft Covenant was the main topic of discussion during my time there, with diversions into other subjects, such as sections of Archbishop Rowan Williams' 2006 reflection and his recent reflection on General Convention 2009. Bishop Smith advocates that the Episcopal Church sign the Covenant, but only with serious intent to adhere to the terms of the Covenant. Of course, I agree that a vote by TEC in favor of the Covenant implies a willingness to live up to its terms. The bishop foresees the possibility that the House of Bishops may vote in favor of the Covenant, and the House of Deputies may vote it down.
I made it clear that I oppose the Covenant, that I see no need for it, that, as I've said before, I think it's a cockamamie idea. From its inception, I believe that the purpose of the Covenant was to discipline and punish those who stray from "the mind of the Communion". However, I don't believe that there is a mind of the Communion, but that the Communion is of many minds, that it always was, and that we can stay in Communion despite a diversity of opinions and practices, so long as we adhere to the essentials of the faith that held us together for so many years, namely the Scriptures, the Creeds, common worship, and the bonds of affection.
Since certain members feel that the consecration of Bishop Gene Robinson created a crisis and tore the fabric of the Communion, Bishop Smith believes that the Covenant will be a means to help ease the crisis, repair the tear, and bring the members of the Communion together again.
(If I unintentionally misrepresent Bishop Smith's words or views in this post, I hope that he will weigh in and correct me.)
I said that Bishop Gene is not the first non-celibate gay bishop and added that the Church of England had non-celibate gay bishops and priests. "Can you name names?"
"No, I cannot." I'm not in the business of outing people, even if I could name names. I said, "It's don't ask, don't tell in the English Church, and that seems hypocritical to me." And then, the ABC locked Bishop Gene out of Lambeth, which I thought was ungracious and rude, and still 200 bishops stayed away. Who more than Bishop Gene should have been present to speak and listen in the indaba groups at Lambeth?
I see little hope that very many of those who left will return because of the Covenant, nor do I think that the Covenant will repair the tear in the fabric of the Communion. (Why does Humpty-Dumpty come to mind?) How would the controversy of Bishop Gene Robinson be settled? By his being stripped of his office? By a promise not to consecrate another partnered gay or lesbian bishop until the entire membership agrees? It seems to me that certain members will be satisfied with nothing less than the removal of the Episcopal Church from the Communion. As I see it, those who left tore the fabric of the Communion.
In my opinion, the seven bishops who met with the Archbishop of Canterbury showed disrespect to Bishop Katharine by circumventing her and going over her head to talk to the ABC, despite the fact that, as a courtesy, they informed her of the meeting. Was he seen as a "higher authority", in spite of the fact that he has no authority in the governance of TEC? When I said that to Bishop Smith, he said, "But he has moral authority". I didn't answer at the time, but later I realized that a person can only have moral authority by earning it. I respect the office of the primus inter pares, but by his words and by his actions, the ABC has been a disappointment to me. I asked the bishop what was the purpose of their visit, and he said that it was to consult with the Archbishop.
When I told Bishop Smith that I realize that, unlike many, I have a certain freedom to speak out that others may not have, because I don't have an official position in the church, other than a not-so-humble pew warmer, he replied, "But you are a Christian, and you must keep in mind your responsibility to build up the Body of Christ." That is true, and I try to do that, but that does not mean that I can't express my opinion about words and actions of fallible humans in the church, especially those in positions of authority.
That the ABC seems to keep one eye on Rome is puzzling to me, but Bishop Smith said that it was necessary for him to have one eye on Rome if we want to be any sort of church Catholic, and the Covenant is the way to achieve that. In discussions with Rome, Rome wants to know who speaks for the Anglican Communion. My suggestion would be to say that Anglicanism speaks not with one voice, but with many voices. Besides, the voices in the pope's own church are quite diverse, much more so than he would ever admit. If I wanted to be like Rome, I'd still be in the Roman church.
I've said already that I am troubled by parts of the statement from the seven bishops who visited the ABC, and Bishop Smith said that I could ask any him any questions at all about the statement or anything else that I didn't understand or that troubled me. Again, Bishop Smith is quite personable, and he could not have been more gracious and pleasant to me. I thank him for his patience with me and for answering my question. I may have questions for him in the future.
I thank Harriet Murrell of Christ Church Cathedral for her kindness and help in making last minute arrangements for me to attend the sessions.
I think I am older than you. So let me ask you a question. When I was younger many Christians thought it was a 'scandal' that Christianity was divided into literally thousands of denominations, sects etc.
ReplyDeleteNow you and other seem to be saying we Christians should break away from any alliance (church) if they don't agree with others on all matters. Is the division of Christianity further and further not a 'scandal'; but what we must do? Would the unity of Christianity not be a good thing; or am I just stuck back in the 50's and 60's.
I have strong disagreements with my own Church--Catholic--over many matters, especially the sex issues. I think the anti-sex attitude of the Catholic hierarchy is outrageous, but I can't think of any church where I, and most others,would not find something to disagree with. My wife and I best friends are strong supporters of Methodism (hundreds of thousands of dollars every year) But they do not believe in the resurrection of the body. Should they leave their church?
BTW, I agree 1000% on your attitude toward LGBT clergy. George
Now you and other seem to be saying we Christians should break away from any alliance (church) if they don't agree with others on all matters.
ReplyDeleteGeorge, I didn't say said that anyone should break away. Which of my words led you to think that?
I'm saddened when a group splits from the Episcopal Church. I'm saddened that 200 Anglican bishops did not attend Lambeth. I'm sad that Bishop Gene was locked out. Whether we disagree or not, I'd like us to share the Eucharist at the table of the Lord. And I do believe that Jesus desires us to be one.
Once again, to bang the drum that "One Body" means "One Ecclesial Unit" is idolatry. Bodies have cells that grow and divide. The hand cannot say to the foot I do not need you, but you don't stick a foot on the end of your arm.
ReplyDeleteDivision is necessary. It allows us to function, rather than impairs it.
If nothing else, we're left with a God who said Himself that he brought a sword, to turn family member against family member. We have a God who sent prophets and disciples both who would not compromise with wrong-doing - they suffered, frequently, for standing up to the authorities and refusing to submit, but they didn't keep saying, "Well, we'll just go along with what they say and at least everyone will be together."
You are doing an excellent job, aren't you?
ReplyDeleteYou're right about "repairing the tear". The only way that a covenant would repair that poor old beaten-to-death metaphor of the "tear in the fabric", would be by casting TEC into outer darkness and handing the "franchise" to xBob Duncan's schismatics. Incidentally, as you may have noticed, it's becoming clearer, even to some of its residents, that that ACNA's house - more a double-wide, really - is not exactly built upon the rock.
Rowan's moral authority went out of the window when he bushwacked Jeffrey John, though we didn't altogether appreciate this at the time.
Wonder how the Covenant would handle the question of possible complicity of members of the Nigerian church in the Yelwa massacre?
If nothing else, we're left with a God who said Himself that he brought a sword, to turn family member against family member. We have a God who sent prophets and disciples both who would not compromise with wrong-doing - they suffered, frequently, for standing up to the authorities and refusing to submit, but they didn't keep saying, "Well, we'll just go along with what they say and at least everyone will be together."
ReplyDeleteI'm left trying to think of one prophet, even Jesus, who preached the division of Israel as a solution to anything. What they insisted on was reform and/or repentance (esp. in the case of John the Baptizer), not splitting off to make a "purer," "Holier" segment.
Much easier to tell everyone else "I'm right! You're evil!" Much harder to live in community, and in communion. Yet that is the call of the Gospel. What was that prayer of Jesus in the Gospel of John? "That they may all be one."
Oh Grandmere!!! I'm lifting my cup of coffee as a toast to you!
ReplyDeleteAnd, don't forget, the snake in the tree was quite personable and gracious and pleasant enough... if you know the apple is bitter, don't settle for it Grandmere.
"Moral authority" and the "brotherhood of priests"; on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a great discussion. Keep up your witness....
ReplyDeleteTobias
Mimi, thank you for going to the School for Ministry. This may be the only public forum in our diocese where these issues have been discussed.
ReplyDeleteMark, we haven't been one ecclesial unit for a very long time, and we will not be one again any time soon. That's part of the "not yet" of the Kingdom of God. But even as groups break away, other groups come together, witness the Episcopal Church and the ELCA now in communion and exchanging pastors.
ReplyDeleteLapin, thank you. When Rowan turned on his friend Jeffrey John and asked him to step away from his appointment as Bishop of Reading, he made a misstep from which he has never recovered. So far as I was concerned, he lost moral authority, and it's been downhill from there. He could have redeemed himself, but he didn't make that choice.
When I spoke of Abp. Akinola's complicity in calling for the jailing of gay and lesbian folks, someone in the class seemed to defend Akinola and said that they would otherwise have been killed. What kind of protection is it when you go to jail to be tortured, raped, and sometimes killed? I didn't have a chance to say that. I had to stop speaking sometimes!
Rmj, certain churches in the Anglican Communion call TEC to repentance often, but what if we think we did the right thing by taking steps toward treating all the baptized equally? If we won't turn around, the want us out, or they'll leave, as some have already done. And yet, I believe that most of us on the side of equality are willing to continue in communion with them.
Thanks, Margaret and Tobias of London.
Fred, I don't think so. ;o)
Ormonde, you started this whole thing, you know. I'm glad that I was able to attend at least some of the sessions. I know that a couple of folks in the class agreed with me, but they were not as gabby as I was. I don't know how the others in the class felt, since I took way more than my share of time to speak. I hope that the exercise was for the best, but I'll leave that for others to decide.
I've seen this quote before on someon's blog.
ReplyDelete"There is , I would say, a recurrent situation in Church history--using the word Church in the wider sense--where an excess of charity threatens unity. You have an elite, an elite of Christian men and (more importantly) women, who are tring to live a less worldly life than their neighbors;to be more attentive to the guidance(directly felt, they would say) of the Holy Spirit. More and more, by a kind of fatality, you see them draw apart from their co-religionists, a hive ready to swarm. There is provocation on both sides; on the one, cheap jokes at the expense of over-godliness, acts of stupid repression by unsympathetic authorities; on the other, contempt of the half=Christian, ominous references to old wine and new bottles, to the kernel and the husk. Then while you hold your breath and turn away your eyes in fear,condemnation or secession, what difference does it make? A fresh name has been added to the list of Christianities." Knox, 1950
George
I'm amazed at your ability to walk right into these snake pits and emerge with sanity and spirit intact.
ReplyDeleteFirst the "Townhall," and now +Smith's School for Ministry.
I'm too thin skinned and short tempered for this kind of thing.
I raise an imaginary glass of bourbon in salute.
One can't help but wonder how the 16th Century English churchmen who "created" the Anglican church (not leaving out Henry VIII, but of course he was himself a highly educated "layperson" knowledgeable in matters of theology, even if (even though?) his regal anointing did not confer special "mana" on him) - one wonders how the 16th Century Anglican divines and laypeople would have responded to being told they had to bow to Rome and Constantinople before taking any actions!
ReplyDeleteGeorge, "an excess of charity threatens unity"? I believe that we must take care not to make an idol of the Anglican Communion. I see it as a very good thing, but I can't see maintaining unity at the expense of practicing Christian love. How can we have an excess of charity?
ReplyDeleteI look around at our present society and see far too much of a lack of charity. Most of us in TEC who push for equality are functioning in that same world, getting our hands dirty, rather than pulling apart, or seeing ourselves as airy-fairy elites. I know Knox speaks of a different time, but right now I just don't see anything that resembles the elites of whom Knox speaks.
Counterlight, thank you. As Ormonde said this may be the only public forum in the diocese in which these issues will be discussed.
ReplyDeleteAitchellsee, exactly. And we'd wait until hell freezes over for agreement with Rome on this issue. If the whole of the Communion signed the Covenant, Rome wouldn't change its stance toward us. I noted to Bishop Smith that while Rowan keeps one eye fixed on Rome, the authorities in Rome don't even validate his priestly orders, much less recognize him as an archbishop.
Grandmere, I see on the "liberal" blogs the attitude that we(the "liberals") are more godly than their opponents. Disagreement, yes. Vitriol,no!Are those who favor the "covenant" evil? It sure seems so by what I see on the blogs.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I support full rights in the church for LGBT. But I see little or no discussion on how a difference might be bridged. George
Rmj, certain churches in the Anglican Communion call TEC to repentance often, but what if we think we did the right thing by taking steps toward treating all the baptized equally? If we won't turn around, the want us out, or they'll leave, as some have already done. And yet, I believe that most of us on the side of equality are willing to continue in communion with them.
ReplyDeleteCalling for repentance always involves the "log in your own eye" problem. I don't presume the standing of a John the Baptizer, and I've never met anyone else who could, either.
And besides, John never called on anybody to leave Israel in order to follow his directives, which pretty much had to do with how we treat each other. His directives were pretty liberal and compassionate, too.
Just to clarify, the School for Ministry is a diocesan school for lay persons and prospective deacons. It meets once a month, Friday night and Saturday, at the cathedral in New Orleans, on a two-year cycle. Each month focuses on a different topic with a different presenter, which this month was Anglican polity with Bishop Smith. Harriet Murrell, of Trinity, New Orleans, is the director.
ReplyDeleteGeorge, do you think that I have indulged in vitriol here? Have you ever known me to say that I am more godly than anyone? I would never, ever say that.
ReplyDeleteAs to vitriol on liberal blogs, I've seen it, but I've seen what I consider to be far worse vitriol on conservative blogs, including militaristic and battle language. In the end, I control only what's on my blog.
I am willing to co-exist peacefully in the same Communion with those who disagree with me. I'm willing to share the Lord's table with those of differing opinions and practices.
I don't presume the standing of a John the Baptizer, and I've never met anyone else who could, either.
Rmj, thank you. Nor do I.
John never called on anybody to leave Israel in order to follow his directives, which pretty much had to do with how we treat each other. His directives were pretty liberal and compassionate, too.
Nor do I call for anyone to leave. We are Christians in community, starting with the smallest community, our local church, and moving outward from there.
It's not always easy to get along with the folks in the local community, but I believe that it's vital to my Christian life to experience the bumps and bruises, which I give and receive in my local community.
As we move outward, those same bumps and bruises will continue, but that does not mean that anyone must leave or call for others to leave.
Ormonde, thanks for the clarification. The group of people in the class have a history together, which I do not share, so it was gracious of all those in the class to share their time with me.
George said, But I see little or no discussion on how a difference might be bridged.
ReplyDeleteI don't think there's a bridge: it's a binary. Either you welcome GLBT people with the same rules applied to straight people, or you don't. Either we GLBT are healthy,normal people with the same capacity for good and ill as straight people, as modern science and medicine agree, or we are suffering from a distinct sickness/carrying a particular cross, simply for being.
how do you bridge that?
Would your "binary" fit here.
ReplyDelete"Either you recognize women as healthy, normal people with the same capacity for good and ill as men, as modern science and medicine agree,or we are suffering from a distinct "defect" carrying a particular cross, simply for being."
We bridged that.
I know I substituted "defect" for "sickness" but is it not the same? George
I agree, Mimi, that the Covenant is almost by definition unnecessary, as I hashed out with Tobias in comments here.
ReplyDeleteAs for his request that you "name names", that is either presumptuous or revealing of ignorance. One of the giveaways at General Convention was a tape of Bp. Barbara Harris's address to the Women's Caucus breakfast at the 2000 Convention in Denver. She noted that the Church has had gay bishops since around 1300 "that we know about". Under which basket has Bp. Smith been hiding?
As you point out, the purpose of the Anglican Covenant (or the purpose of many of its supporters) is the opposite of bringing Churches of the Anglican Communion or "mending" any purported "tears". Bp. Smith's stated purpose for the Covenant -- to give the Archbishop of Canterbury the ability to speak "with one voice" for the Anglican Communion, is not part of its stated objects or empowerments, and it would not serve that purpose. Evidently neither Bp. Smith nor Abp. Williams seems to understand that a former Archbishop had it right: "According to Rome I'm a layman. We have to talk about that first." That conversation has not yet taken place. And no Covenant is needed for such a conversation, but rather a hairpin turnaround by the Vatican.
The "Magnificant Seven" not only showed disrespect for the Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church by meeting with Abp. Williams; they showed a profound lack of understanding for the polity of TEC and of the Anglican Communion. Listening to the lawyer who gets paid to tell you only what you want to hear will always get you into trouble and will only benefit that lawyer in the long run.
As for moral authority, Rowan Williams has squandered any he once may have had, not only by his treatment of Jeffrey Johns, but by his disinviting Bp. Robinson to Lambeth. The ONLY JOB that the Archbishop of Canterbury has in the Anglican Communion (other than sitting in the cathedra that member Churches are nominally "in communion" with) is to invite ALL THE BISHOPS of member Churches to the Lambeth Conference. Misguidedly, Rowan Williams botched that simple task. The ONLY person in the Anglican Communion that appears to have any material moral authority these days is Desmond Tutu, largely because he is more clear-spoken than Bp. Jefferts Schori.
I commend you, Mimi, for daring to speak truth to power. I would hope that power listens.
And an aside to George: Not to proselytize, but if you are really that unhappy with the RCs, consider attending an Episcopal Church instead. You may well find a kindred theology. Baptized Christians are welcome. And being older than Mimi is not a hindrance.
Paul(A),
ReplyDeleteI was an Anglican for 65 years. Served on a vestry for years. But my wife of 47 years and my kids and grandkids and a young friend we help are all catholics. Yes, I do get very angry at the catholic hierarchy, but, to be honest,almost none of the catholics I know pay attention to what the hierarchy say. I think this is a difference between catholics and Anglicans.
BTW, and this is not a challenge, just a question. As I recall from decades ago, Anglicans did not have 'open' communion for all. Maybe I am wrong. George
Paul, thank you. I didn't mention it in the post, but Bishop Smith and I agreed that Rowan made a mistake not to invite ALL the bishops to Lambeth and let those who would, show up.
ReplyDeleteGeorge, you say, "We bridged that", with respect to woman in the church, but, in reality, we have not bridged the difference in the whole of TEC. I continue to believe that a good deal of the disrespect directed toward our PB is due to the fact that she is a woman. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
As to LGTB folks, I think often of the words of Bishop Barbara Harris spoken at GC09, which I posted on my sidebar:
"How can you initiate someone and then treat them like a half-assed baptized?"
To me, it's that simple. You can't. In that direction lies the bridge for anyone willing to go there.
As I recall from decades ago, Anglicans did not have 'open' communion for all.
ReplyDeleteGeorge, the default position for most Episcopal Churches is to welcome all the baptized, of whatever Christian denomination, to partake of Communion. However, a few churches "...in conscientious defiance of the canons of the Episcopal Church that restrict communion to the baptized, have undertaken the practice and inspired a number of other parishes to do the same." Thus, "...its profile is high enough to have warranted a resolution before the 74th General Convention asking for the appointment of a task force to consider the serious ecumenical and theological ramifications of this growing practice."
The quotes above are from Friar John's Ruminations. I thank him for the explanation.
Canon I.17.7 provides that "No unbaptized person shall be eligible to receive Holy Communion in this Church." Previously there were restrictions on administration of communion to divorcees that had not followed church procedures, but those have been dropped. Refusing communion to anyone can get a priest into trouble, and such refusal can be appealed to the diocesan bishop.
ReplyDeleteThe current (minor) debate in The Episcopal Church is over offering communion to unbaptized persons, which is contrary to the canon cited but is the open practice at one or two churches; the "orthodox" seem to think it is utterly rife outside their own parishes.
Mimi and Paul (A), I understand the Episcopal Church position TODAY. My point was: At one time, when I was Young, Many Anglican churches said you had to be confirmed before taking communion. It is clear that has been changed, but it once was relatively common in the church. It shows that things can change without rupture. George
ReplyDeleteIt shows that things can change without rupture.
ReplyDeleteOf course, things can change without rupture, George.
That was changed, George, in The Episcopal Church at the time of the introduction of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer. I couldn't speak for the rest of the Anglican Communion.* Anyway, stop by more often.
ReplyDelete* Insert your own Covenant joke here.
Mimi, Someone told me they remembered you when...Well, never mind. George
ReplyDeleteGeorge, I'm intrigued. When what? Never mind what? If it's something truly embarrassing from my past, send me an email. The address is under my picture.
ReplyDeleteWe are divided!
ReplyDeleteWe continue to divide, by the virtue of trying to preserve this or that body as a separate body.