Saturday, March 23, 2013


Included in the interview are statements by Justin Welby that I find troubling.  The partial transcript below is mine, and I don't vouch for every word as correct.  One word is missing, because, even after listening a number of times, I could not understand what the archbishop said, so I left a blank. A reader supplied the word.

After the question about the decreasing numbers of the English who attend church, the interviewer asks:
Question: Could the source of that be that the church seems so out of touch with the mainstream on a number of issues, especially sexuality?

Response: The Church of England holds very firmly and continues to hold the view that marriage is a lifelong union of one man and one woman.  At the same time, at the heart of our understanding of what it is to be human is the essential dignity of the human being, and so we have to be very clear about homophobia.  You don't by muddling these ideas.  You don't suddenly provide the answer to dwindling congregations.  There's a very big difference between the ideals that we hold to that are essential to us and also pastoral practice.  In pastoral practice, you work with people as they are, as you hope they work with you, as you are yourself, and we are all conscious of our failings.  Anyone who goes around saying, I'm so ideal that I've got it absolutely right, and we can throw out those people we disagree with is completely out of order.  That's just not the way it works.
I confess my first reaction was, "And they let you get away with this?"  In the two questions and answers that I so laboriously transcribed, Justin seems to be doing what he said mustn't be done, namely muddling ideas.  To accept the idea that a straight person can have a marriage, but an LBGT person cannot, is homophobia, at least as I see it.  Why must the church hold "very firmly that marriage is a lifelong union of one man and one woman"?  Because of tradition?  The church changed its practice about a number of traditions.  To name only two: slavery and divorce.

Is it because of the few verses in the Scriptures that appear to refer to same-sexuality?  Surely Justin knows that the case against same-sex paetnerships and same-sex marriage in the Bible is quite weak.  None of the passages refer to faithful, loving, committed relationships of two persons of the same sex. Don't take my word for it; read Tobias Haller's book titled Reasonable and Holy.  Jesus never mentions same-sexuality in the Gospels, but he explicitly condemns divorce.  I'm mystified about what the church would allow in the way of pastoral practice.  It would seem very much like turning a blind eye, which Justin denied when the interviewer mentioned it.
Question: Do you worry sometimes that the concept of equality is beginning to displace Christian values?

Response: Equality as an aim and end in itself is something of a myth because people are not equal; they're different, and if we try to make them equal, we take away the extraordinary richness and diversity of human beings in all kinds of ways, and that's a huge mistake to make.  How you treat people can be equal without saying that you'll all be the same.
Balderdash!  Actually, a stronger word, not suitable for polite company, came to mind.  Justin Welby knows full well that those of us who advocate for equality for LGTB persons do not intend to "take away the extraordinary richness and diversity of human beings".  Why would he say such a thing?  We advocate for exactly what the archbishop says he wants: equal treatment under the law and in the church.

Since I had limited energy for transcribing, I picked out the archbishop's answers that troubled me most, but I believe the interview is a poor performance that sheds little light on Justin's admittedly evolving views on same-sexuality.  Unless he wishes to spend a good deal of his time answering questions about the issue, he must do better.

From the BBC.


Kay & Sarah said...

I think the word is "dwindling."

Grandmère Mimi said...

Kay & Sarah, I believe you're right. Thank you.

JCF said...

Someone who sets diversity against equality understands NEITHER.

God save the CofE. God bless and protect TEC (especially from the likes of...)

Grandmère Mimi said...

Exactly, JCF. Where's the Straight Talk Express when you need it? It was barely used by McCain, so it ought to be in good condition.

Wade said...

Well, the hirsute halfwit who preceded him started out on our side. Perhaps this one can evolve in the right direction with help. And I'll lay you odds if there's another royal wedding he'll at least get himself properly groomed. The last one seemed to lack heart, everything was abstract to him. I suspect this one actually believes in something.

Grandmère Mimi said...

Wade, I hope Justin's thinking evolves in the right direction. We'll see.

Tobias Haller said...

Dear Mimi, thanks for the "product placement" [;-)] and also for your thoughts. I saw the interview he gave on Religion and Ethics Newsweekly, and it was a similar response. I think he's got this speech down, now. I only hope he begins to realize that he needs to do a bit more engagement with the question, and not keep worrying about "toeing" the line. I normally only do that in discussions of the Trinity!

Grandmère Mimi said...

Yes, Tobias, the script for interviews is finished; nevermind answering the questions. I'm saving, "There's a million reasons..." for the next time I'm fishing for an answer to "Why?" or "What about...?" The "uhs" and "ums" are a giveaway, too, that the ABC may be a bit stuck about what to say next.

I'm always happy to help your book sales. My advertising rates are quite low, as you'll see when you get the bill. :-)

Russ Manley said...

It would be wrong to make a final judgment on someone from a 4-minute clip; but he strikes me as a very common type of corporate man, who will always speak and defend the company line - until it changes, at which point he will defend the new point of view with equal tenacity, and never, ever admit having been in the wrong.

This type is usually a very good greeter and mixer, who fits in very comfortably to every gathering, and never raises his voice by a single decible, never rocks the boat or steps out of line. Secretaries and brown-nosers just love him - because he's so nice, so thoughtful, so considerate.

But this type never takes a stand, never has a really definite opinion about anything that is remotely controversial. They always make nice, and they always end up on the top of the pile. They will go along, gladly and willingly without resistance, with any change, as often as the wind shifts. They are the ideal employee, and indeed the ideal CEO (as a front for the real the powers behind the throne) because they are what Dante called trimmers - and consigned to the vestibule of Hell. For good reason.

Of course, I could be wrong. Only time will tell. But as nice and as smooth as he may be - I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

Grandmère Mimi said...

Russ, I don't like sounding such a sour note so soon after the ABC's induction, but judging from his video appearances and statements since he was chosen for the role, I don't see another way.

I hope you're wrong, but I think you may be right. The interviewer seemed hardly to be listening to Justin's answers, but focused only on getting in his questions, as he did no follow-up to the obvious evasions of the questions. The two seemed to be hardly communicating at all. Makes me wonder if the entire interview was scripted ahead of time.

Ormonde Plater said...

Given the upstairs, downstairs tradition of English society, even in these days of greater diversity, why should we be surprised?

Grandmère Mimi said...

Right, Ormonde. Hope springs eternal, or something...