MadPriest said...
A disciplined TEC will gain more support and the schismatics will lose support because Americans will see any such move as an attack on America and will side with those being attacked. Other than the loss of status abroad and a few freebie trips that TEC's higher officials enjoy at present there will be little noticeable change in the American Church.
As I keep saying. The primary concern of TEC should not be itself, which is strong enough to weather this storm, but their weaker brethren abroad whose forseeable future is very bleak as they will have to make the decision of leaving the church they love, without any other home to go to, or living a lie.
The truth is, although I am 100% behind TEC's recent policies, their unilateralist decisions are not a sacrifice for Americans but a sacrifice for their supporters throughout the world who had no say in the decisions. That is why I believe TEC has a primary duty to the spiritual welfare of those fellow travelers outside of the States.
Grandmère Mimi said...
So. WWII redux. The Americans to the rescue. But, you know, we tend to run late.
The covenant thing will take time to play out. What do you see as the plan and the timing for the rescue to be undertaken? TEC missions established in England? Do you see a breakaway movement in England?
TEC in the US is not quite so all right as you see it, IMO. I think things are leaning in the direction of those of us who are inclusive, but there will still be a fight, which will take its toll on TEC.
I put up a rather serious post which asked questions about the English Church that you might have been able to answer, but I don't see a comment at my site from you.
Did your wise words appear elsewhere?
MadPriest said...
Mimi
Too damn right you should come to the rescue and with no feelings of righteousness. America started all this, and with their usual isolationist view of the world, have not thought through the effect their actions will have on progressives elsewhere in the world. Your actions are in serious danger of putting gays and their straight supporters, elsewhere in the world, in an even worse position than they were in before. Therefore, TEC has a responsibility that extends beyond its borders.
Jake said...
I didn't particularly want to hear this. But you got through anyway. And you're right.
This has some far-reaching implications. Now I've got to rethink some stuff. And may even have to eat some of my own words.
Other voices have tried to say this before, now that I think about it, but I couldn't, or wouldn't hear it. Maybe it takes a madman to reach another madman?
See also this post by Fr. Jake.
Not on topic, but looks like your junior senator is making a name for himself. You must all be very proud. God and his wife have forgiven him, however. Probably as well for him that God doesn't have a whole lot to say for himself nowadays, but then, there are more than enough others eager to sound off on his behalf.
ReplyDeleteAs to his wife - guess that time (2010?) will tell.
This morning I had an argument with my wife about this. I claimed the senator's only fault (other than hypocrisy) was that he had a whore instead of a mistress. My wife disagreed vehemently. But what about our local congressman, Dollar Bill, who kept a wad of cash in his freezer?
ReplyDeleteIt's difficult not to slip into schadenfreude with this news about baby-faced, Rhodes scholar David Vitter, family values man that he is.
ReplyDeleteOf course, rumors abounded before the news came out.
Ormonde, Dollar Bill, with his $90,000 in the freezer is old news.
On the question of Vitter, I stand with your wife.
Thank you, Mimi; I heard this person's name on my other blog place, guerillawomentn.blogspot.com, but didn't know who Vitter was.
ReplyDeleteAnd, a warning, the varmits over there, and are NOT tame, they cuss and spit and chew, and all ages and genders.
Johnieb, it's the family values, self-righteous ones that are likely to backslide, as some would put it. Heeding Jesus' words, "Judge not," is actually to act in one's own self-interest, but folks can't see that.
ReplyDeleteIt was not the self-righteous Pharisee, but the tax collector who beat his breast and called himself a sinner, who left the temple justified.
Mimi, on-topic (!), I have posted a long comment both at MadPriest's and at Jake's. I think they are both a bit off-base in blaming TEC's 'unilateralism' for the crisis in the Communion and demanding that we take a lot of responsibility 'beyond our borders'. Your previous post on the Archbishop's low profile (which at the moment verges on being a vacuum!) is apropos here. Where is the leadership in the Church of England?? We can't provide that.
ReplyDeleteMary Clara, I read your comments at OCICBW - both of them - and I left my own comment saying how beautiful and eloquent I found your words.
ReplyDeleteYou said what I wanted to say, but much better than I could. I was stung by MadPriest's comment, and thought it best not to say anything in response until my emotions cooled.
Re forgiveness by the Little Woman, Wendy Vitter is quoted by ABC News as having said, apropos of earlier claims of her husband's infidelity, "I'm a lot more like Lorena Bobbitt than Hillary [Clinton]. If he does something like that, I'm walking away with one thing, and it's not alimony, trust me."
ReplyDeleteCould get interesting.
Roger, this is not new to me, so I doubt that it's new to Wendy Vitter. I believe that what she said back then was an attempt to distract. They admitted some years ago that they were having marital problems and were getting counseling. She's had quite enough time.
ReplyDelete"Unilateralism", hell! How many Lambeth Conferences called for listening to gay persons? How many members of the Anglican Communion other than TEC seriously did so? And now that we listened and acted on the knowledge gained that gay persons are persons rather than shibboleths, the asshats now have the gall to say "But you didn't ask my permission! I'm so shocked that you would do this to me!"
ReplyDeleteOur gay brothers and sisters aren't the pansies here. It's time for the others to wake up and smell the coffee: It ain't Christian to denigrate and bash gays, any more than it is Christian to denigrate and bash women or denigrate and bash people of color. Claiming the "right" to do so as "handed down from the saints" makes you a hypocrite worse than any whited sepulchre of a Pharisee.
Well, I suppose I could be wrong.
But I don't see how.
Paul, I don't see what TEC did that should have been done differently that would have made things easier on the rest of the Anglican Copmmunion.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, I would like to see TEC moving faster along than it is. There was no listening process in my diocese, or if there was, it was so secret that I never heard of it.
The joke is that I should do something to save the English. The only person I can think of in a lowlier position in TEC, with less power, is, perhaps, a child in the church. And I am supposed to save the English.
There isn't anything we can "do" for the English or anyone else, except, not walk away.
ReplyDeleteWe pushed the envelope. Heck, TEC started the Anglican Communion.
I think we owe it to other unsupported progressives to at least hang in there, and provide some witness, some leadership.
Keep forcing the issue, keep forcing the theological discussion, and chipping away at the nonsense.
That's all TEC can do.
Eileen, I agree.
ReplyDeleteI never thought boycotting Lambeth was a good idea. We need to be at the table. TEC may get thrown out of the AC, but I do not think we should remove ourselves.
Well, one thing about our friend, MP. He definitely is honest, and always speaks his mind.
ReplyDeleteI've never met another Christian brother like him, that's for sure.:)
Grace.
Grace, you can say that again.
ReplyDelete