If any of you who visit here do not visit Fr. Jake's place, I recommend that you go there to read the excerpts from a sermon by Alan Harper, Archbishop of Armagh, in Ireland. He links to the entire sermon, which I believe is a thing of beauty.
Here's what I said in the comments there:
The whole sermon was excellent. I'm saving it and keeping it to reread. I love what he said about the Word of God being a "living" and "dynamic" person, not a text, not an "it".
I agree with him and William Temple that "division is a greater sin even than heresy". Jesus prayed for us to be one - one in his Body, one with the Father and the Spirit - to minister to a broken world.
Grandmère Mimi | Homepage | 08.18.07 - 4:40 pm | #
Mimi, forgive me for asking this, but if you really do believe that division is a greater sin than heresy, why did you leave the Roman Catholic Church?
ReplyDeleteI read Jesus praying three things for his Church in John 17 - that she be preserved in unity, truth, and holiness. I believe that to exalt any one of those three over the others is to make it into an idol.
Tim, you are free to ask and need no forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteI did not lead a group out of the Roman Catholic Church. I did not cause a schism. I did not cause division. I did not encourage anyone to leave with me.
I left because part of the money that I was giving went to the diocese to pay hush money to victims of abuse, while the priest was allowed to continue to serve in a parish. My money was being used to pay lawyers to advise the diocese on covering up child abuse. My bishop was in hiding. The lawyers were running the diocese.
I did not divide the RCC in my town. I left quietly, without making trouble.
Our scandal happened several years before the big national scandal in the RCC, and had very little coverage by the national press.
One of the priests is now serving a life sentence in prison.
I knew several of the people who were involved, and I reached the point where I could not write a check. I physically could not do it, and I tried. I could not, in conscience, continue to attend a church without contributing to the church.
For several months, I did not go to church at all, but I found that I needed a Christian community and began attending the Episcopal church.
What would you, as a priest, have counseled me to do differently?
Mimi, thanks a lot for linking to Fr. Jake and to this sermon. Lots of food for thought, esp. regarding bibliolatry. I wonder about the "division" thing too, as Lutheran. Luther didn't set out to divide the church, but he did. But there's two way to look at division: within the whole church, and within a denomination. There is a lot of infighting in denominations now.
ReplyDeleteRe: you comment, I can see your dilemma in your church. I can't even imagine.
Diane, Henry XIII did not intend to establish a new church. He always considered himself a Catholic. In its history, the English church had sometimes more, sometimes less autonomy from Rome. It was Pope Leo X, himself, who bestowed on Henry the title "Defender of the Faith".
ReplyDeleteNo, I would not have counselled you to do otherwise, because I do not believe that unity is an absolute. I believe that in your actions you gave equal honour to truth, holiness, and unity, according to Jesus' prayer. What you saw was unholy and you saw your diocese offending against truth by paying hush money. I am sure it was a painful decision for you, and I honour you for it, and thank God that you found a home with us.
ReplyDeleteHowever, that does not change my original point. Many modern Anglicans see the Network people as a schismatic group, but in the same way 16th century catholics saw the Church of England as a schismatic group, breaking away from Christ's holy catholic church - and taking their buildings with them as well. My response is that they did it because they honoured truth and holiness as well as unity.
My response is that they did it because they honoured truth and holiness as well as unity.
ReplyDeleteThey honored truth and holiness as they saw it, Tim. The Roman Catholic Church saw it otherwise. Who has the corner on absolute truth?
I see no reason for schism in the Anglican Communion nor in the Episcopal Church. I am most certainly not in favor of throwing anyone out. If there are those who, in conscience, feel that the must go, then go they must.
Jesus wants us to be one, and he wants us to love God and love one another. He did not seem to me to be overly caught up in doctrine. He taught us the way to live our lives.
Thanks for the sermon and the comments. We must all pray fro unity and work for it too!
ReplyDeleteJohn, thank you for visiting. You're right. We all need to pray and work for unity. As Bishop Harper said, it's easier and quicker to divide than it is to reunite.
ReplyDeleteAnother matter altogether. I just stopped over at "Mad Priest Lite". There is a piece there about Missy, which I see that you have also visited. Missy needs to be very careful about what she puts on her blog, access limited tho' it be, and her supporters need to be equally careful about directly quoting or even paraphrasing what she has said. Anything on there is of potential use to her husband and his lawyer and because she has "published" it, I believe that her husband's side would have little difficulty in getting legal access to it. I suspect, in any case, that hacking might be quite simple and not illegal. Better to keep it to email.
ReplyDeleteExcuse the diversion.
A wonderful find, Mimi; I, too, shall return to it.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading it, the question that occurs to me is "How are unity, truth, and holiness to be separated?" I am only a simple country pew sitter, for the most part, but it seems to me that surely none of these things, as imperfectly apprehended in this existence, is Absolute without the infusion of that grace which cannot be apprehended, but received as the gift that is the Giver.
A tiny typo nit; there is no Henry XIII as yet: it's Henry VIII. :-)
What ! No Henry XIII! I've been fooled all these years. (Confession: I never was good with Roman numbers. My apologies.) I suppose that the others were too polite to say anything - or else they're not good with Roman numbers, either.
ReplyDeleteJohnieb, I am only a humble pew-sitter, too. Jesus calls us to all three, unity, truth, and holiness, but our concepts of the full nature and meaning of the three is limited. We see now "through a glass darkly". At times we separate and stray away from one or more of those ideas for the sake of one or more of the others.
It seems to me, as it does to the archbishop, that we Christians get a fuller measure of the meaning of truth and holiness if we remain united, rather than if we separate.
When we meet God face to face, I don't believe that we will be examined closely as to whether we have our doctrinal ducks in a tidy row. "How then did you live your life?" is a more likely question. Or so it seems to me.