This morning I was up and out early for the adult Sunday school class at my church, arriving late, but not too late. We are watching N. T. Wright's DVD set, Simply Christian, and discussing the presentation afterward.
I like the talks by Bishop Wright, except for a few minor quibbles. His TV presence is quite good. Last week, the subject was justice, and when we went to the discussion, one man in the group had brought 250 pages of material which he had printed from a conservative Roman Catholic website on the glories of the free market, the form of economy most likely to produce justice and equality, soi disant. I sat there taking this in with a large dose of skepticism, and he went on and on, until the rector gently interrupted before he read all 250 pages. Thanks be to God, because I was dying in my seat. I squeezed in a few words to the effect that this was odd material coming from a Roman Catholic website, since the present pope and his predecessor both had spoken out against injustices produced by untrammeled free markets. His going on and on about free markets seemed to take the wind out of the rest of us for any kind of lively discussion. Any wonder?
This morning the subject was spirituality. After watching the good bishop's presentation, the same gentleman was the first to pipe up again to tell us that ours is a Christian nation, and yet there are people who believe nothing except what they can prove through science. Who knew? Then he proceeded to tell us that these folks are walking free among us and having meetings. They are loose on the streets and gathering together. Imagine that! He went on again at some length, and once he was done, I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying, "These folks really should be rounded up, don't you think?" After that we went on to have a pretty decent discussion.
I find it nearly impossible to sit still for this kind of talk and not answer back. What saved the day was the discussion after this man stopped talking. He's talking politics, and if he wants to talk politics, I can do that, but that's going totally off topic and defeating the purpose of the course.
What do I do? Talk to my rector? Continue to go with the hope that he'll stop? Continue to go and pray I won't pop off at him if he keeps it up? Stop going to the class?
I think I would talk to the rector. I think having diverse views on politics represented in a church body is a good thing; however, politicking in church, whether it be left, right, or very far right, is not. It seems to me that church is a place for our unity in Christ and growing in his likeness, which is not to say that we will all come to the same political conclusions, something that I know is hard for many to understand.
ReplyDeleteSince I'm not confrontive, I'd say to myself, "Bless_________, change me." However, he is distracting the focus of each class, so he is not just affecting you. . . .
ReplyDeletePerhaps Sunday school is not for me. I'm already on record as disliking Alpha. This course is much more to my taste, but someone is going to have to call this person on hijacking a chunk of each class to talk about his pre-planned agenda, or I'm out of there. I think the rector is the only one who can do this.
ReplyDeleteKJ, almost everyone in the church has dissenting views from me, so it's not that I can't accept that others think differently, but you're right, this class is not the time or place for politics.
Jan, I don't know. Maybe the others don't mind, but the class seems like a waste of my time if I have to listen to this person push right-week politics week after week. I did not sign on for that.
Thanks for your input.
I'm so sorry this happened to your class. I'm sure you're not the only one who feels that way. Do talk to the rector, at the very least so you can get some kind of idea as to how it will be handled and perhaps also he (male rector?) will be able to share some information that might help you deal better with it yourself.
ReplyDeleteOur Adult Forum has fallen on bad times largely because two people (opposite politically) could not restrain themselves from speechifying and attacking each other, one of whom usually started it first. Although the current rector did a pretty good job of keeping them under control in terms of time limits and working hard at getting us back on topic, the tension and discomfort that built up over the years drove away most of the people who would be willing to read or think about challenging topics and help carry the discussions. Although the one person who sparked the most controversy finally stopped coming to the class a year or more ago, people haven't come back to the class, so it's mostly just a carryover of coffee hour from the early morning crowd and a pre-coffee hour for the later group -- chit-chat but no willingness to engage in books, articles, videos, or much of anything of substance. That's a big reason why I have gone online -- trying to connect with people who really do want to talk about their faith, sacred and inspired literature, and how to apply it to their lives. We don't have that anymore in regular parish functions.
I see it from both sides -- that it is very difficult to go and listen to someone like that, both in terms of suppressing one's own frustration and irritation and not ever knowing when and if there is anything to be gotten out of being there personally. On the other hand, if folks don't hang in with the rector, then it may cause long-term harm to the adult-education/discussion part of parish life (especially if, like us, the church is in an area where people won't come to weekday Bible study or prayer group meetings).
So... No good advice here, I'm afraid. Except maybe... you know, I'm willing to bet you'd be terrific leading a study and/or prayer group. Maybe you could start one that would meet during the week - at church or, depending on the kind of folks you have, in people's homes. The rector might well agree to help, or at least help you get started.
If this man might want to join, you could make it a women's group. In any event, maybe you need to focus on another group for the kind of religious education, discussion, and community you are looking for. Hopefully, the situation will resolve itself over time, and maybe there are things you and others in the group can do to help the rector manage the man.
Klady, I guess it's not unusual that this sort of thing happens in adult Sunday school.
ReplyDeleteThe rector who conducted the best Sunday school classes at my church was smart, knowledgeable, and pretty much a dictator with folks like this gentleman. Get on topic, or else. I liked that about him, and the classes were lively and interesting, often with disagreements, but generally not getting personal and resulting in hard feelings. He had a not-so-gentle way of cutting off those who went on and on. You learned not to do that.
In the end, it's a matter of simple politeness not to take more than your share of time.
I could never lead a group. I am not a leader of any sort. Trust me on this. I have tried.
please do talk to the rector. I'm sure there are others who disagree with you. It's not easy to deal with someone who hijacks a class, but I think the rector has to establish some guidelines. Next time this man gets up, I think the rector needs to say, "I'd like someone else to get a chance to have the first word." or something. I think your rector may be too nice.
ReplyDeleteI would answer back.
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit late to the party- but I say speak with the rector.
ReplyDeletePeace to you Grandmere!
Diane, my rector is too nice, way too nice. He does not want to offend anyone.
ReplyDeleteDennis, I'm sure you would talk back. It takes every bit of self-control I possess not to answer back, but if I do, then I will be hijacking the class, and I don't want to do that.
As I was taking my walk this evening, the thought came to me that maybe the man's a bit senile.
Fran, thanks for weighing in.
The vote goes in favor of talking to the rector. I suspect he already thinks of me as a thorn in his side, so I've nothing much to lose.
I suspect he already thinks of me as a thorn in his side
ReplyDeleteIf that is how he thinks of you, Mimi, not only is he not nice, but he is an imbecile.
And you may tell him that your Invisible Internet Friend said so...
(It is the class leader's responsibility to shut down the blowhards. I had to do it today with 2nd graders, who can be just as long-winded and irrelevant as grown-ups, given half a chance... ;-)
Somebody needs to correct him, gently if possible. If the Rector, or the class leader, can't/ won't, it may be welcomed from another source. It isn't hijacking to ask someone not to dominate the class with irrelevancies.
ReplyDeleteFailing that, invite JohnieB for a weekend visit. heh.
mimi, you are there so you probably have the best read of the situation. It may well be that rector may not be able or willing to do what you would like him to do. It certainly would be unfortunate if it a situation easily remedied.
ReplyDeleteLet me just suggest, however, that your expectations are pretty high:
"The rector who conducted the best Sunday school classes at my church was smart, knowledgeable, and pretty much a dictator with folks like this gentleman."
Well, yes, I think we can all think of our favorite teacher in similar terms, not just a rector. Unlike a teacher, however, a rector has many jobs to do. Nothing kills someone's ministry faster than people comparing how the rector does each part of his or her job with someone who did it perfectly -- or simply looking to the rector to be the teacher, leader, guide, disciplinarian, governor, servant, and sometimes janitor and housekeeper.
Personally, I think a church should be a community, first and foremost, not a place where people come to get services from the staff. That means that each and every person has responsbilities. It's not the rector's job to do everything. If this man is causing problems, yes, by all means check with the rector first and see if he can improve the situation once he knows that people like you are distressed by it. However, you may find that the man in the class has some kind of mental or emotional problems or there are other good reasons for allowing him to stay and not coming down too hard on him. Or it may be, as you suggest, that your rector is not a hard-nosed dictator kind of guy. If so, why shouldn't the group work out the problem? Why is it the rector's job alone?
I'm not trying to be difficult. I know this situation is really troublesome - I've been there and felt like throttling people, and, like you, I crave good teaching and controlled discussion. It's just that I don't see a Sunday School class simply as a voluntary thing that one signs up for if it is "good" enough, a service that the rector has been paid to do in a certain way and the class members are simply consumers who have a right to expect a certain level of performance. Personally, I think the rector who is intellectually brilliant and able of intimidating people so they they don't dare interrupt his or her class, ask stupid questions, or talk too much in ways that makes other uncomfortable is not necessarily the person I would want in other aspects of ministry. Yet when one has such a person teaching, those gifts are to be appreciated when others are found lacking.
Sorry to ramble. Bottomline -- don't just talk to the rector -- give him a chance to respond and see if he, working with other members of the group, can work together to control this man. Better yet, maybe there is a way of reaching him and diffusing whatever anger and obsession fuels his trying to hijack these classes. In any event, crazy people tend to come to churches because other places won't have them. It's always a challenge for those of us in churches to deal with people whom others tend to kick out or ostracize. It ain't easy.
Sometimes the only thing that will work is a drinking straw and some spitwads.
ReplyDeleteJust sayin'.
I could have Dennis and Johnieb gang up on the guy.
ReplyDeleteLook, I am confrontational. I could tell the man, but I think it is the class leader's responsibility to take charge, and the rector is the class leader, and he would not take kindly to my doing this.
Doxy, I'll tell him about my invisible e-friend who talks to me all the time.
Klady, folks did not seem intimidated by our rector-dictator-teacher, because our discussions were lively and interesting, as I said before.
Why is it the rector's job alone?
Because he wants it that way.
Padre Mickey, that's the best idea yet. I'll mention that to the rector when I talk to him. And I will tell him it was your suggestion.
I don't know the size/make up of your group, but I have welcomed support from others when someone tried to take over a group. Of course, I usually say something, like "does someone else have another point of view on this?" But I would also set ground rules on something like this... before the discussion even starts next week, the rector needs to say, this is a conversation, and not a time for "public statements".
ReplyDeleteoh I wouldn't gang up on someone.
ReplyDeletebut I do let them know when I disagree with them and it seems like an important issue.
I have never been a quiet wallflower when it comes to the big issues.
Mimi, if you had made your "round em' up" comment, I would have laughed. It might have been the ice breaker the group needed.
ReplyDeleteI totally disagree with Klady on this. There is nothing wrong with expecting basic competency from the clergy. Learning how to lead a small group is a fairly straightforward proposition. It does require some practice but it can be done. Perhaps the vestry could suggest it as part of the rector's continuing education. If they wont, get the bish to do it. It's not as if you are asking him to fly over the moon. Being able to facilitate a small group discussion is a skill he really should have.
Lindy
Good morning,
ReplyDelete"Why is it the rector's job alone?
Because he wants it that way."
That's funny. That's of course why I suggested you talk to him first.
I realize I've had more than my say about this, but I still think *you* all are missing something very important - Christian community. In the situation I was in, "my" rector was perfectly capable of both controlling a discussion and, if need be, ejecting someone disruptive (has, in fact, done that in various contexts). But I also was privy to information that made me understand why he had to, in effect, sacrifice the class for the sake of one person and his family. It was a very hard decision and even harder to witness weekly, but I still think it was the right one for reasons that I think go beyond my personal biases.
Yet even if I had not known what I knew, even if I thought the pastor was not doing his "job," I would hope I would be a lot more charitable. Pastors have to deal with conflict day in and day out -- it's tough to take on one more battle. Why do *you* (commenting) always put him or her on the chopping block? What does "competent" mean in terms of the priesthood? Do the same standards apply in all situations that they do in academia or business? Are different decisions and styles sometimes called for? Is what is "right" in a college classroom necessarily what is "right" in a Sunday School class?
One of my pet peeves about the Episcopal church is that historically in many areas parishes were founded and maintained by the most powerful and best educated in the community, and there remains something of that feel in many (certainly not all) parishes. Episcopalians tend to think of themselves as the best and the brightest. They want Sunday Schools to be college or better yet post-graduate school fare. Fortunately, a great many Episcopal clergy can provide great religious education. But is that and (for some) high liturgy what it's all about? What about the people who just need to get something off their chest, what about those who have poorly articulated ideas, or, as in this case, an obsession with politics? My experience in at least one Lutheran congregation (the one in town, BTW, that welcomed AA and Al-Anon groups, even had a chalice with grape juice for them) was that *us* university types had to put aside our usual customs and ways of dealing with people and be uncomfortable sometimes, learning as a group to manage, for example, the young woman who wanted to accost all strangers and tell her story of sexual abuse and bulimia, the older mentally retarded man who wanted to pick up people (especially important to see he didn't pick up children -- and we had to spell his elderly mom for that duty), the many recovering alcoholics who still had many "me" issues.
I'm NOT talking about "letting" any one dominate or hijack Sunday School classes, about not asking the rector first and foremost to take better control. I am talking about considering the possibility of suffering through the messiness it takes to get along with this person, considering what it is like for the pastor, who has this problem thrust upon him in the middle of a busy Sunday, and considering what is going on with the hijacker, who may be very afraid or lonely and/or dealing with mental problems or addiction.
O.K. mimi, it seems I hijacked your thread again. You have a fairly simple problem -- you're frustrated, understandably, and you're a bit put out because you expect that your pastor won't handle this situation well because a) it seems he hasn't so far and b) his personality strikes you as the kind that avoids conflict. So, you talk to him, and if you're not satisfied, you quit the class, if that's what you want. All I'm trying to do is to suggest that there are other perspectives on this situation. It's not that you're wrong and the pastor is right, it's that there are a number of things going on here and I would hope that everyone would give the pastor something of a break. I don't think most of you have any idea how often parishes "kill" perfectly good priests (or what kind of armor *you* make people like "my" rector put on after 35 years of dealing with *your* complaints). End of rant.
Mimi, you've got one of the most effective arrows in the world in your quiver - you are, as some never cease to remind you, A Little Old Lady. As such, as you very well know, you can pretty-well do what you damn-well please!
ReplyDeleteActually, if the guy is showing up with 250 pages of printouts (guestimate, or did you count every page as he slowly turned the leaves) it sounds a bit like what, in our childhoods, was termed monomania. Talking to the rector would probably be a good idea, but why not round up a posse of old broads to go along with you? Personal experience suggests that there have to be more than a few others every bit as exasperated with the man as you are. Strength in numbers and it makes a bigger impression.
If the worst comes to it and the guy is filthy rich and pays half the rector's salary, there's lots of exciting new African missions floating around nowadays. You can always try one of those.
Klady, I am not going to suffer through it. That will not be my solution. I simply cannot.
ReplyDeleteLord knows, I'm not out to harm the priest, nor to be out of community with the man. I'm willing to have a conversation with him any time outside of the class on anything he wants to talk about.
Lapin, he said 250 pages, and it was a stack of papers, so I took him at his word.
I may be an old lady, but I'm not a shrinking violet. I don't need a posse to talk to the rector.
We'll see. I appreciate all the ideas and contributions to the thread.
oh, I'm not telling anyone to gang up on anybody. A group can help enforce rules, though. In a kind way.
ReplyDeleteAlso, this man may have some pastoral care issues. Doesn't mean you should let him get away with reading 250 pages of stuff, but...
I had a guy show up to Bible study one summer. he wasn't a member of the church, and he said he came because he "liked me" so much, but then he proceeded to keep coming back to an issue that he KNEW I dissagreed with him on. And I didn't want a Bible study on justice to devolve into an argument with just him. So, I invited others into the discussion and expanded to other justice issues.
But, he was kind of a lonely old guy, too, and the group recognized this and dealt with him firmly but kindly.
Grandmere Mimi, you really don't need our advice on this one. You were, as they say, getting it off your chest. And we jumped in and started offering advice.
ReplyDeletesorry
Now, go follow your gut feeling. You are hardly a shrinking violet. You have lived through enough and know more than enough and have earned the right to speak your mind.
We had one of those people at St Anna's years ago, and she wrecked the class. Everyone else just quit. Not even the rector, a tough guy, could save it.
ReplyDeleteYou could stomp your feet and throw a tamtrum.
Dennis, I really did ask for advice, and I'm pleased to have the responses.
ReplyDeleteYou are in the business, and you well know that folks get advice, but, in the end, they do what they want to after getting the advice.
More than a few people confide in me and ask for advice. In the past, I worried about steering them wrong, until I came to see that most folks do what they want to anyway, and I stopped worrying.
Ormonde, I could do that. Do you think that would be helpful? ;o)
I learn an awful lot at this (and other) blogs.
ReplyDeleteI pray for wisdom for this whole situation.
That and a good Grandmere Mimi followup to it all!
Mimi, to answer your question, tantrums have worked before. But I think a better approach would be to challenge the guy as soon as he started his tirade, and ask that the group stay on topic. If that doesn't work, I'd tell the group what's wrong and then get up and leave.
ReplyDeleteMimi,
ReplyDeleteI certainly don't want you to suffer needlessly. There are certainly many places you can go where you can listen to or read people spewing forth propaganda of all sorts who have no desire or willingness to listen to others and will not keep quiet no matter what. Life is short, and there's no need for you to feel you have to subject yourself to this situation if things don't improve considerably.
I just wanted to "share" -- as someone who really must suffer through these and other frustrations in parish life, with limited options as to both dropping out or going elsewhere -- what I try to keep in mind so I don't spout off (as, I'm afraid, you suffer me doing here), which often may be fine for others but does not, shall we say, become the rector's wife. It's been very hard for me lately, especially now that it's fall and it's back to the same old, same old, including Adult Forum. The danger actually is not so much speaking my mind but rather being overcome by dark angry thoughts, which, of course, would pretty much defeat the whole point of my being present at all.
Thank you, dearest Mimi, for your gracious hospitality here. It is much appreciated.
"KJ, almost everyone in the church has dissenting views from me, so it's not that I can't accept that others think differently, but you're right, this class is not the time or place for politics."
ReplyDeleteIf for no other reason, Mimi, your views need to be heard. If there is only one view, no growth will come of it.
"Somebody needs to correct him, gently if possible. If the Rector, or the class leader, can't/ won't, it may be welcomed from another source. It isn't hijacking to ask someone not to dominate the class with irrelevancies."
Good advice. You need to call your rector to LEAD! Leadership doesn't come to us clergy-types with the laying on of hands. We have to learn how to do it so that all our parishioners can be heard. We have to learn how to lead sometime and often it is our parishioners who teach us how.
Now if your rector is being chickenshit, then you have to help him find his spine and do his rector thing.
But I do think that you can't separate religion and politics. You can separate church and state but not religion and politics because they have to do with how faith is lived out in the world. That said, there is a difference between ideology and theology and that is what your rector needs to make clear for the group. It isn't ideology that you want to discuss in Church, it is how you live out what Christ has taught. And that is the tip toe through the tulips that is difficult part of making the Sunday School curriculum discuss clear.
Hang in there, Mimi. It is very important for you to be a part of that class. If we cannot agree to disagree in Sunday school, there is NOWHERE we can have those discussions that bring our faith into the real life.
My friends, here's the follow-up. I talked to the rector and he said that he realized what was going on, but he hoped that the man might learn from being in our group. He does not want my help in this situation. In other words, "Suck it up," said in a nice way.
ReplyDeleteOK, maybe the guy will learn, but IMHO, this old dog ain't gonna learn new tricks. Of course, I could be wrong. I'll try to stick it out for a while longer to see how it goes. If he starts up, I could suddenly feel the need for a quick trip to the rest room.
I want to be clear that the rector has many good qualities. He has allowed the poor into our church. He is quite tender, compassionate, and faithful in visiting the sick, the shut-ins, and counseling the grieving. He does God's work, surely, in reaching out to those most in need within and without our church community.
How does his leadership in one Sunday school class stack up against that? Not very high in importance.
At least he is aware of my unease at this man's long-winded spiels during the class. There I leave it for now. Despite my words in another comment, it appears that I will suffer through it for a while longer.
Klady, you are always welcome here. I welcome all, so long as the conversation remains respectful, one of the other.
I won't stand for personal attacks on me or my visitors. I will be the dictator and zap those comments without hesitation. I have been blessed so far, because I have not had to do that. I have said it before, but I'll say it again: I have some of the best blog commenters online. Thank you all for your visits and commentary.
I encourage some "I statement" confrontation - "when you talk so long in class, I feel cheated of everyone else's participation." (or whatever else you feel when he goes on and on) Then the ball is in his court - you have stated your feelings - he is not being attacked with a "you make me crazy" type of statement. Just break in when he has talked more than 5 minutes -how many in the class - divide the time by the numbers - that is how much each can have.
ReplyDeleteSecond - a good group technique is using mutual invitation - the leader picks a different person to comment first each time - then that person picks the next person - people can pass if they don't want to talk but they pick the next person. I bet no one pick that man!!
And yes use the Little Old Lady card - we can be very scary when we want to be.
As to NT Wright - I have lost all respect for him since he whined about how he had only gotten to play 3 rounds of golf this year and how oppressed he is by his job.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAs to NT Wright - I have lost all respect for him since he whined about how he had only gotten to play 3 rounds of golf this year and how oppressed he is by his job.
ReplyDeleteAnn, I agree. That's a pretty pathetic statement. I am judging Wright only by the content of the course, and, so far, it is good, with a few minor exceptions.
I don't rule out ever saying anything to this man. He comes with a written, prepared agenda before he has even viewed the DVD. I may ask him one day to give his views on what we have just heard Bishop Wright say, rather than what's in his prepared materials.
My patience for listening to long, boring, bone-headed spiels is limited.
Mimi, I 'd just aim a forceful kick between this man's legs.
ReplyDeleteIt's the only language that such men understand.
Your rector may evn thank you.
Turbulent Cleric, welcome and thank you for the suggestion. I'm trying to decide between yours and Padre Mickey's somewhat milder way, the spitball through the straw.
ReplyDeleteI get the most direct and forceful advice from male clergy. Now why would that be?
My dear Grand Mere, the reason is because some of us are incapable of being nice for more than a few minutes a day. We excuse ourselves by calling our agressive tendencies "muscular Christianity."
ReplyDeleteI suspect that if I met the man you described I would be very tempted to beat the snot out of him.
Off now to cool down!