Photo of Bishop Gene Robinson and his parents, Imogene and Victor Robinson, from the Dallas Morning News.
Tobias Haller at In a Godward Direction is doing a series of posts on human sexuality titled "True Union". I've been reading them and, on occasion, leaving a comment. I hope that Tobias finds a way to collect this series of posts in a pamphlet or booklet or, at the very least, that he will gather them together with links on his home page. Here are the links to those he has written so far: True Union (1), True Union (2), and True Union (3)
I left comments to a couple of the posts which include these words - and I am aware that quoting oneself has an air of desperation about it - nevertheless....
Grandmère Mimi said...
And I keep coming back to my perception of a God who loves us infinitely, who delights in us. Why would that God create persons drawn to love and desire those of the same sex and then deny them fulfillment of those very desires that he created them with?
And no, I don't want to hear about pedophilia, and rape, and incest, because those actions cause harm to others. Desires which cause harm to others are, of course, to be suppressed....
September 24, 2007 10:17 AM
And this:
Grandmère Mimi said...
We women have suffered long enough from the writings of Aristotle and Aquinas, with their tossing around of the word defective, however near to innocuous the term is defined by....
Contemporaries of mine who attended Roman Catholic seminaries were taught that women were "occasions of sin". No wonder some of the priests acted strangely in encounters with women. Not all RC priests took this nonsense to heart, but enough of them did that we felt the sting.
Your [Tobias'] mention of the Incarnation is vital to the discussion, because the man, as biological father, is totally out of the picture - not necessary - absent from the scene.
....
October 09, 2007 4:36 PM
And this:
Grandmère Mimi said...
....,I'm sorry, my friend, but what comes to mind is, "There is none so blind as they that won’t see."
If you can't see that your own church and, to a large extent, most Christians denominations are as yet riddled with gynephobia as well as homophobia, then I don't think I can help you see. The churches have come a way, but they have a long way to go.
You say:
"In marriage God unites them in such a way that, by forming 'one flesh', they can transmit human life: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.'"
I'm an old lady. I can no longer transmit biological life. Am I no longer one flesh with my husband of 46 years, because I can't produce a baby?
OK, that's my last feminist word on the subject. I see my words and ....'s words as not so very much off topic, as I think the prejudice against women and the prejudice against gays and lesbians are interconnected, and both are rooted in unreasonable fear.
October 11, 2007 10:29 AM
From an article in the Dallas Morning News on Gene Robinson, which I thought was quite well done, mainly because the interviewer let Bishop Robinson speak:
"I take the long view of history," he says. "The debate will end with full inclusion of GLTB people in the life and ministry of the Church. We're really only arguing about timing."
Bishop Robinson is right, but LGTB folks are getting impatient, and rightly so.
Asked about homophobia, Robinson is more philosophical than religious.
"Homophobia is aimed more at gay men than lesbians, "he says. "It's because of an internalized misogyny and the demise of patriarchy."
Misogyny, he explains is a form of prejudice wherein the male is considered superior to the female. "For the misogynist, the greatest affront to being male is to allow someone to treat you like a female. That's why same-sex couples are often asked which one is 'the man' and which one is 'the woman' in the relationship."
In terms of the Bible and religion, Robinson explains, from the time Eve gave Adam the forbidden fruit to Paul's insistence on female subjection, women have been considered subservient to men.
It seems that my thinking is not far off the mark from Bishop Robinson's own thinking.
I like his final words:
"We're trying to figure out what the truth is," he says. "When enough of us figure out that God's table and God's church are open equally to all people, we'll act on that and deal as pastorally as we can with those who don't see it that way."
I'm not sure if lesbians agree that homophobia is aimed more at gay men than lesbians, but from listening to men and women talk, I find that they are much more put off by the idea of same-sexuality between two men than between two women.
Gene Robinson and Tobias Haller have studied and pondered these issues far beyond my capacity, yet, by the grace of God we arrive at something resembling a similar conclusion. Thanks be to God.
Thanks to Jim (the Spin) Naughton at the Episcopal Café for calling my attention to the article.
Thanks, again, Mimi! I love the picture of +Gene and his parents. They make me homesick for the South. I must go to Tobias' blog. I can hardly wait to see who you were reacting to in some of your quotes.
ReplyDeleteSusan, I thought that perhaps the picture of Gene with his parents might call attention to his humanity.
ReplyDeleteSo many folks seem to talk around, about, or in any other direction than to LGTB people, and listening to them seems fairly rare in quite a number of circles.
Good work, Mimi. I really liked the way you replied (persistently) to the persistently wrong, seriously uninformed Rick Allen at Tobias's. What planet is he living on?
ReplyDeleteI loved the article on Bishop Gene, went on to read the whole Dallas News section and noted that it was an advertising supplement! Somebody really put up some money to get those articles before the public. Some good stuff there including a piece about the big Cathedral of Hope in Dallas designed by Philip Johnson. I think it will have its effect, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
thanks for this Mimi. Now I need to head over to the other blog.
ReplyDeleteMary Clara, you did well in the comments, too. I was glad to have support from another woman - and such a knowledgeable woman.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right, Mary Clara, someone paid money to put that supplement out. Good for them.
Diane, thanks. Get on over to the other place.
I thought Tobias' sermon "Test with Fire" posted today was absolutely magnificent. I was reading it while my students were suffering through a test on fractions and my eyes started to get teary. (Of course, when I look at the grades they got on the test, I'll probably cry again.)
ReplyDeleteJohn
John, I thought the sermon was magnificent, too, but I praise his music, his art, and his writing so often that it's getting embarrassing. I feel like an adoring groupie - at my age!
ReplyDeleteI wanted to say something, but I kept silent for today.
Oh, John, don't cry over fractions.
"I'm not sure if lesbians agree that homophobia is aimed more at gay men than lesbians..." Right you are, in the opinion of this lesbian. I think what lesbians encounter is a slightly different. The social opprobrium we encounter is a mix of misogyny and homophobia. That is, we're not proper women (who aren't worth anything anyhow) and then we ickily go and bond with each other and that's disgusting (and titillating). Generally nasty stuff, but I do think men who transgress gender stereotypes (queeny types) are somewhat more likely to get beat up than lesbians who present as butch -- we look more dangerous. :-)
ReplyDeleteJan, I have heard straight men say that they think lesbian sex is hot, or, as you say, titillating.
ReplyDeleteThe prejudice is different toward gay men than lesbian women, but it's there.
Well, yes, Mimi, humanity first..nostalgia second. I stand corrected...
ReplyDeleteSusan, nothing wrong with nostalgia, either.
ReplyDeleteIn a word- brilliant. What a post Grandmere, brilliant.
ReplyDeletejaninsanfran,
ReplyDeleteI think that the whole point is patriarchy and the idea of the superiority of men. Male homosexuality is abhorrent to the patriarchal mind because a man is being degraded by taking an inferior "female" role. Lesbianism is the opposite -- the woman has the temerity to grab a superior "male" role.
Both are bad for the right-wing patriarchal mind.
This is the first distressing thing I have heard from Gene Robinson.
ReplyDeleteIf homophobia is defined as how icky bigots think your lovemaking is, I can understand his claim that it is worse for gay men. Even so, the attribution (correct I think) of much of homophobia to misogyny in itself proves that all women are considered a lower species by people who hold it.
If homophobia is defined as structural injustice attacking the civil and ecclesial rights of lgbt folks, it is far worse for lesbians since they are women in a profoundly sexist church and society. As Janinsanfran points, out, lesbians are oppressed on two counts (sexual orientation and gender) or more in the case of lesbians of color. For instance, two mom households, having two (often lower) female incomes, are even more harmed by the economic effects of marriage discrimination than two dad households.
In all culture all men have male privilege, even though some experience discrimination as well due to race or sexual orientation. As a woman I have far less privilege and fewer rights--though as a straight white woman I have more in some ways. This is not to get into competition about who is most oppressed, but to acknowledge the multiple forms of oppression and honor the fact that those who are oppressed on most counts are, in fact, oppressed most. The tenor of Robinson's comment is to suggest that lesbians have it easier in church and society which is so untrue--and all the more compounded, of course, for lesbians who face race and class discrimination on top of that for sexual orientation and gender.
Closeted or semi-closeted gay men have a long history of ecclesial privilege through ordained ministry even at that terrible cost, but there is no closet that can hide your womanhood. And many archconservatives who condemn the sexual choices of out males still have some respect for them as priests, while denying the validity of female orders at all. I have experienced this contrast as a straight clergywoman often in the independent Catholic world, sometimes from Anglican "orthodox" types, and their disdain for lesbian priests would presumably go even farther.
Last comment should have read "in *this* culture all men have male privilege," though on reflection it is true on a widespread basis and the situation for, say, lesbians in Uganda would be even more horrific than it is for gay men because of the status of women there....
ReplyDelete