From Elrena Evans at Episcopal Life:
Ten minutes before the service starts, a priest is pounding down the aisle in full stride. As my one-year-old daughter spots him, she squeals in recognition and holds out her hand. He whirls around to face her.
"Shhh!" he hisses. "Be quiet."
And with a swoosh of his robes, he is gone.
My daughter drops the hand she was holding out to him, confused. She doesn't understand why this man she was so happy to see wasn't happy to see her. And I don't understand why I am sitting here in the pew where I sit every Sunday with my extended family, allowing a man in clerical garb to rebuke my daughter.
Ten minutes before the service? I know that some churches reserve the time before the service as a quiet time, but this sort of rudeness to a child on the part of the priest is shocking.
I shift in my pew. I live in a world of the body. My spirituality is twined with flesh, with bodies that birth and nurse their young. That is the high calling of motherhood: a demand that we learn to negotiate the spirit world while remaining firmly rooted in our earthly humanity.
This isn't the image of the church I want to give my daughter, that we allow men in fancy dresses to tell us we're not welcome -- for being women, for being flesh, for being noisy, for being young. I contemplate walking out. But I don't want to leave. I want to stay right here, with my daughter, visible symbols of the messy realities of life. We who are steeped in the blood and milk of motherhood will not hide ourselves to make anyone else more comfortable. That's not the example Jesus set.
And then later in the Eucharistic service:
I kneel down at the Communion rail with her in my arms, and she holds her hand up to the chalice bearer, my father. He smiles as he tips the chalice to my lips. "The blood of Christ, the cup of salvation," he says. Then he rests his hand on my daughter's head. "The blessing of Jesus be upon you." She laughs, and snuggles into my arms.
Thanks be to God for the loving touch. Let's pray that, as she grows, the little child experiences more love than rudeness from the other members of the Body of Christ.
Thanks to Ann.
Well, I missed all the commenting about the $1 million church service, so I'll try to tie hospitality into the question of spending so much money on spectacle:
ReplyDeleteI know a church in Houston which won't spend any money on itself that it doesn't spend on mission. Literally, for every $ spent on the church, they must spend an equal $ on mission, or the money isn't spent on the church. And it is a church with a very nice facility, very large, very comfortable.
So, is that church of the million dollar spectacle doing the same? If not, do not speak to me of "saving souls" and "evangelism." I don't accept that worship is for evangelism in the first place (although it's certainly a place for spectacle).
But worship is certainly a place for hospitality. I used to smile whenever children screamed when I was leading worship. I remembered the medieval church, where no one sat, everyone stood, and doors were opened (no a/c, little heat either) in good weather, meaning dogs (and people, and children) came and went.
The "sit down-face front-BE QUIET!" model of worship is not only harshly artificial, it's not even traditional. Well, it is but tradition, and my tradition?
"Shhh!" he hisses. "Be quiet."
ReplyDeleteAnd with a swoosh of his robes, he is gone.
But Grandmere, surely we cannot ever deny that priests are very, vey important people! I have met quite a few, and am now firmly conviced that in the Episcopal Church there are 'priests' and there are 'priests.'
You see, a coule from my parish wanted to get married in one of the larger Episco-Temples in New York City, and asked the Rector there if I might take part in the nuptial blessing. His reply, "Certainly not. We do not encourage provincial clergy."
There are 'priests' and there are 'priests.'
Rmj, smile and carry on is the way to go with noisy children, for the worship leader and the congregation, if hospitality is a goal.
ReplyDeleteI think it's a grand idea for a church to spend a $ on mission for every $ it spends on the church. I'm thinking the idea won't be widely adopted. My parish church would have to shut down the building, if we did that.
However, it's a worthy ideal to hold on to, with the goal of incrementally raising the percentage of parish funds that go to mission each year.
RR, I've already discovered that there are 'priests' and there are 'priests'. And we certainly can't have provincial clergy getting puffed up to the extent that they forget their lowly 'place'.
Well, this is probably not what I should spend time commenting about (though it certainly is where - hmmph to MP - can't even count the 2 regular dogs)... but, this is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves.
ReplyDeleteI began my adult churchgoing with infants and toddlers. Our Lutheran congregation was overflowing with young children and we had a nursery with a sound system that broadcast the service from the sanctuary. Some chose to keep their children in the sanctuary, some chose the nursery. But the choice was made based on what was best for the congregation as a whole, not the individual whims or desires of what a parent thought was the best "experience" for their little ones.
What I did was allow the children to only stay with me if they were reasonably quiet. I allowed them to thumb through the books in the pew (as long as they didn't harm them), bring crayons and coloring books, etc., but if they got fussy, whiny, or otherwise acted in ways to distract me or others from the service, I hauled them out immediately to the nursery. While some would say that I couldn't discipline my children if my life depended on it, by golly I trained those kids to not only be quiet but also to have an appreciation for the special nature of the sanctuary and what people were doing in it. Now not all kids can be trained to sit quietly in church (personalities, maturity, neurology, relations with parents, etc. all play a part). But most all can come to understand that a sanctuary is NOT like any other place in their lives. When they are ready to sit through a full service, they will, and some may even view it as an honor to be allowed to do so.
Today's parents, like the one in the article, who cannot cope with adults speaking to their children are irresponsible and self-centered. Churches vary as to how formal and informal their worship services and other functions are, for many reasons, but some measure of quiet and attention is helpful, at times, especially for those traditions that believe that something sacred and holy is specially and particularly present in the Eucharist and/or reserved Sacrament.
But even for those who aim at something informal, most well-run kindergartens impose some kinds of parameters on behavior. Yet somehow when they get to church, parents nowadays seem to want full freedom to let their young children be as rude and loud as they want to be, or at best, totally indifferent to the needs of those around them, "hospitality" being understood in terms of license rather than welcome.
And who gets stuck in the middle? -- the priest or pastor. The well-seasoned priest in my family long, long ago decided he wasn't going to say anything to these kinds of people, for many good reasons but also no doubt in the interest of self-preservation. That leaves it to the people in the pews to decide whether to dare intervene, sometimes aided by action to provide good nursery care. As far as I'm concerned, kudos go to this priest who DARED to hush this child, and yes, even prior to the service, which is when many people come into the sanctuary to pray. His job is not to be some kind of icon of godly benevolence, nor is his every interaction with a child in the parish supposed to make them feel blessed. At the moment he dared to speak, he was doing his job at the moment, which was to provide a worship setting for the entire congregation, not cater to the fussiness of one particular child and her overbearing, overprotective parent.
I have known some dogs that have behaved far better in church than most children. And you know, those little human darlings do grow up in just a few short years to the point where they can behave, yet these kinds of ridiculous attitudes undermine even later efforts at some semblance of discipline and respect for others. And those children who are tolerated as screaming toddlers (and I don't mean an occasional yelp -- I mean those who scream so long and loudly that others cannot hear) -- those for whom Church Growth people go ga-ga over -- are not going to be coming back to church in the late teens and twenties and beyond and for as long as they still believe that church should be designed entirely for their individual pleasure and comfort.
I know. Although I was raised to be quiet in church, I was definitely taught that it didn't really matter much, that one should leave early or stay home to avoid taking communion, and that social connections were far more important than any sense of the sacred, which was really kind of out-moded superstitious stuff best left to the Catholics. And while I'd never suggest I've been a model parent or spiritual mentor to my own children, I do not think that it is an accident that the more religiously faithful of my two teenagers is the one who was raised as a High Church Episcopalian from a young age, who loved thumbing through the BCP (upside down at times) and who, at age 2, could sit both quietly and happily through a spoken Rite I Eucharist. No one can teach the presence of God but one can teach that there are times and places reserved for those who, by their devout presence, prescribed words and actions, witness their faith. While that should not by any means be the end of witness, for many, especially in these secular times, it is a good start.
End of rant.
Klady, I did not mean to suggest that parents should exercise no restraint on the behavior of their children. Of course, there are limits.
ReplyDeleteWe have young ones who, on occasion, sing their own little songs while the choir is singing and comment on the sermon aloud right in the middle of it, but it does not get out of hand, and no one seems to mind.
Suffer the little children....
And we certainly can't have provincial clergy getting puffed up to the extent that they forget their lowly 'place'.
ReplyDeleteCertainly not! I know my place, and my place knows me ...
I think it's a grand idea for a church to spend a $ on mission for every $ it spends on the church. I'm thinking the idea won't be widely adopted. My parish church would have to shut down the building, if we did that.
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking your church couldn't spend $1 million on a Xmas pageant, either. But one that could, should be matching such spending with spending on others, if it wants to justify such church-centered largesse. IMHO.
Yes, Mimi, we have a young man with CP who squeals with delight at odd moments and young children with single moms who cannot realistically be parted from them. We love them and tolerate a great deal, with smiles and true patience. But "suffer" the children does not translate literally into not only suffering inappropriate behavior in silence but making a positive virtue out of it.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that a woman who would write what she did for a national audience has issues with her priest (and perhaps vice versa) that should not be aired in such a venue. In any event, the child needs to learn that she is not supposed to speak out whenever she feels like it, and that's all the priest was trying to teach (though it may have been a stressful, busy moment during which he overreacted).
Hushing a child when they spontaneously recognize someone and want to speak in church does not equate with lack of tolerance and understanding for the times that they do speak -- all it means is starting to start to teach them some restraint. Who better to do that than the priest?
The congregations I have most enjoyed acted and felt like family -- the kind where aunts and uncles and close friends and neighbors can speak to children. I remember, Robert, a mentally handicapped adult in our Lutheran congregation, who adored children and wanted to pick them all up (like lifting them wildly high up in the air). It was everyone's "job" to gently keep him from doing that so his elderly mother did not have to spend every minute watching him. At the same time, no one fussed if one of the "elders" were to say something to a child -- there was tolerance going towards the other way, as well. Someone who can't deal with a priest telling her child to be quiet is, to me, someone who does not know how to love and be loved in a real, live, human family, which is the only kind we have here on earth.
I have a feeling I'm going to be long winded on this one. Please forgive me.
ReplyDeleteMy congregation is not quiet when they enter the church and it is the adults that make the most noise. Up until a few minutes before the service I stand at the back and greet people as they come in. If someone comes in who I know as had something - good or bad - happen during the week, I sit beside them and spend some time talking. Children are greeted with enthusiasm.
I realized early on here that the time before the service is chaotic. It is the gathering of the community and everyone is busy being community and catching up on each other's news. What I have done is structure a transition into the worship space before the beginning of the service proper. Usually I come out and greet the congregation and give them any information they may need about the service. We then do a call to worship that often involves the visual of lighting a candle. This leads us into a worship space.
I refuse to make the people be quiet. I love listening to the hub - bub of the people gathering and caring for each other.
As far as children. We have an area at the back looked after by a teen-ager (usually my daughter). It has soft toys such as stuffed animals and puzzles as well as various crafts and a learning centre on baptism. The children are free to play there or take things to the pew. Sometimes it gets a bit noisey but we just celebrate that those children are present in our midst.
I have started this centre in 3 churches and have received very good feedback. At the second church my children were the only young ones attending. I worried what my three/four year old was getting out of the service because he was forever playing.
One night, just before my mother had major surgery, we went into the city and shared in a healing service with eucharist at my parent's home (my father is a "retired" priest). My (then) four year old followed that service word for word even though he had not yet learned to read.
"Suffer the little children to come unto me." And that means that at times we need to accept and celebrate the chaos that children bring. Although I must admit that there is a limit before it is very disruptive, especially for older parishioners who have a hard time hearing. And that needs to balanced out.
Rmj, I don't know what we spend on our Christmas pageant, but I'm sure the amount is quite small. We have a closet of costumes made by parishioners over the years for those in charge to choose from, and the whole planning and practice takes place in a period of about three or four weeks. How spectacular can you get operating under those constraints?
ReplyDeleteRR, I'm glad you know your place. Continue in your humility. God approves.
Klady, we disagree. I thought the rude, "Shhh. Be quiet," from the priest was awful, if that's how it happened. The writer may have issues with her priest. She was badly hurt, and she chose to write about her hurt. Perhaps she should have taken up the matter with her priest. Perhaps she did, but chose to write anyway. Priests don't have a dispensation to be rude. None of us do.
ReplyDeleteAnne Marie, I have much sympathy with what you say. Our services are probably more sedate than yours, but most of the parishioners seem to cherish the presence of the children and are willing to make allowances for the occasional noise. We have a nursery, but some parents choose to have their children in the sanctuary.
Ann,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate what you are doing in your churches, in part because a priest inevitably brings along his or her own piety and style of worship, and when they fit their congregation (or the congregation is willing to fit themselves to the priest), practically speaking, it works well. Schedules and physical configurations also make a difference (we, for example, have an ample ambulatory with coffee and cookies, etc. where people can and do mingle before and after mass, and Sunday School immediately precedes our main liturgy, so all the greeting, talking, and sharing of information takes place long before worship time).
One of the problems I see in the Episcopal Church (and some others) is an overanxious desire to please and an often belief that traditional liturgy and music must be forceably abandoned. The truth of the matter is that there is no "right" way to relate to children, teens, or adults, that some need or prefer a lot of quiet and some need or prefer a boisterous spontenaeity, some are deeply moved and guided by classical music and hymns, some feel constrained and alien from them. As we enter into the 21st century, it becomes more and more apparent that these differences generally are not tied to particular generations or ages but rather personality traits and various kinds of experiences. You will find plenty of young children who are frightened or disturbed by too much "chaos" as well as teens who prefer Mozart over rap music or even the simpler kinds of sentimental contemporary Christian music. There are Baby Boomers who detest tradition, and their children and grandchildren who may eat it up. So, there is no one way that is right, no prescription for chaos or order.
To some extent, each congregation and its pastor must find their own balance and not necessarily shy away from creating a niche for those whose modes of understanding and feeling lean in one direction more than another (as long as that niche is not enforced with concrete walls). In my mind, a good pastor or priest is always juggling the roles of leader and servant. One who has specific purpose or worship setting in mind should be free to do what is needed to create and maintain it, and the fruits (not necessarily numbers) will be the judge of that effort.
While the Episcopal Church has been spending so much time and attention over the issue of human sexuality, it has tended to ignore how some progressive elements have been trying to suppress traditional forms of worship. I'm not suggesting you are one of those, Ann, but I am deeply concerned about parts of our church who seem hell bent on destroying some of our traditions, traditions which may not be essential and should not be sacrosanct, but which nevertheless continue to have a great deal of meaning and usefulness to people young and old. Churches that offer quiet and peace in worship are to be treasured just as those who offer a different kind of homeiness. Articles like the one in Episcopal life seem to me to be an attack on the former, one which does not allow for different styles of worship and ministry.
Mimi, then we agree to disagree. I just believe that before service time in the sanctuary is something that can and should be enforced in a parish that expects to have that time provided, and even if it's not, that an adult seeking to enforce such rules is not "rude," at best only misguided.
Just wanted to add (and yes, then I'm really out of here!), does anyone recall Elizabeth's writing earlier this fall about Ms. Conroy's appreciation for Anglo-Catholic worship? I suspect that Elizabeth herself is all for "doing church" the way Ann describes, but nevertheless she got this much from Ms. Conroy, whom she quoted as saying:
ReplyDelete"I need a place, just one place, at the beginning of my week, where I know who God is and where God is and that there's some semblance of order and control in the universe. Please don't deny me this one hour of illusion. Some days, it's the only thing that keeps me going."
Some people really need that place.
Well I may have missed her, but this comment is for Klady...I was about to post it and had a cable outage.
ReplyDeleteFrom Klady..."which was really kind of out-moded superstitious stuff best left to the Catholics."
Ouch! Sorry, I have read it a few times and keep saying ouch so I had to say something. Maybe it is just me, but this is a forum. Grandmere, I hope you do not mind.
Suffer the children and the Catholics as well, particularly this less than superstitious one!
Being Catholic all I can say is that at my lively parish, either of our two great priests can be seen interacting with folks as part of the welcoming.
The retired president of the Church Building Fund, Charles Fulton, used to tell groups that the typical church is like a jet airplane. One is forced to sit in uncomfortable seats (all facing in one direction), discouraged from moving about, and fed tasteless food. (Those were in the days when airlines served food.)
ReplyDeletefraniam, I only speak the truth of how I was raised, and I'm not exaggerating. I certainly do not share that view of Catholicism, but it has long been how many Protestants view Roman Catholics (not to mention atheists and agnostics) and pretty much what was I was taught, both at home and in the Methodist church in which I was raised. It is a real, and pervasive bias which I believe continues to work against sacramental theology and worship in Protestant denominations, even some of the Lutherans and Episcopalians. We spent quite a long time talking about it one year in our Lutheran adult Sunday School, the year they required everyone to file up at the front of the nave to take communion by intinction standing up, rather than the custom of going to the long broad altar rail to kneel and receive from silver trays and glasses (the change all part of making the service shorter so as to "welcome" the unchurched, who, BTW, never came anyway). Back then (late 1980's), what incensed people was how "Catholic" the new practice was, and the distate for and disdain of "Catholic" was very deep and, in some, quite ugly.
ReplyDeleteFolks, feel free to use the comments as a forum.
ReplyDeleteOrmond, church as a ride on an airplane today! That is a profound analogy worthy of intense contemplation.
One day I was apologizing for the noise my toddler made in church, and my wonderful priest said to me: "A quiet church is a dying church."
ReplyDeleteGod bless her for that.
(Surely I don't need to make the caveat that really noisy children should be removed to another location---do I?)
Some people really need that place.
May I suggest the 8:00 service? I've never encountered a single, noisy child at the early service. It's hard enough to get them out of bed, dressed, fed, and out the door for the 10:30 gig...
When did we start getting silence confused with reverence?
ReplyDeleteSorry, but a priest hissing at a child ten minutes before the service started because she had the temerity to smile and say hi to him is just plain wrong.
I spent twelve years working in Canadian native communities (Cree, Dené and Inuit), in which kids have free rein. One day we were doing a baptism at one of my Cree churches and a little mouse ran across the front of the church. Every kid in the place took off after the mouse; we had to stop the service til the mouse hunt was over.
When you live in that sort of culture, a child wanting to say hello to her priest ten minutes before the service seems a bit tame, really.
"May I suggest the 8:00 service?" - Doxy
ReplyDeleteWell that works for some, but there are others who feel that music is a great contribution to their worship experience, and also like some order and politeness in the service. Music is hard to come by at 8:00 am. You can't hardly get the choir to be there that early. ;-)
My thoughts go along with Klady's, but I haven't seen any others say that it is the parent's or parents' responsibility to teach children how to behave in church as well as movie theaters, concerts and restaurants. They don't usually pick these things up by example only. Teaching kids to be thoughtful and polite enough to be quiet is not going to stifle their little ids, or egos, or whatever one believes shouldn't be interfered with.
Oh, and what ever happened to the concept of whispering?
Oh, I know...it's the age of cell phones, where everyone must be available at all times to talk as loudly as possible in any situation. And I will rant here. To all people with cell phones....Public places are not your living room!!! We don't need to know your business. You are not that important. Turn the damn phone off! If you are that important, stay home so that you can receive those calls!!!
Ok, back to children....
Call me crazy, but I think the fact that there usually is no set routine at bedtime for all these overextended children of overworked parents removes a perfect time to teach acceptable behavior and how to follow a routine. Maybe my son was an exception(aren't they all?) ;-), but every night from the 3rd week of his life, there was reading a short book followed by prayer, that started with the Lord's Prayer and as he got older ended with the God Blesses of everyone and thing he thought was important. After that we always sang the Hymn that used to be in the hymnal...'Jesus, Tender Shepherd.' Then it was lights out and off to sleep.
Talking about going to church and what it means to be there and what goes on there is a good thing, and should not be put off until the family is on the way to church, except as a reminder of what has been discussed before.
OK, I'm done!
(Surely I don't need to make the caveat that really noisy children should be removed to another location---do I?)
ReplyDeleteActually, yes, having truly suffered for more than one liturgical year from a couple screaming 3-5 year olds who were NEVER removed no matter what. The parents were highly educated, one a teacher, and they simply embraced "chaos" even when readers and preachers with microphones could not be heard above the wailing. No amount of offers of help, staffing a nursery, or anything else helped.
I don't believe that our problem is an isolated incident. The kind of attitude those people had was precisely what was expressed in the Episcopal Life article, characterizing the person who tried to quiet a child as a monstrous serpent who "hisses" instead of "hushes." Its the heavy-handedness of the slant that suggests to me that the author has not yet left the mom-baby cocoon and returned to the real world of community where everything cannot and should not revolve around the child.
Why are you all so ready to believe the account this woman has given? Look at her words: "hisses" "shocking" "swoosh" "allowing a man in clerical garb to rebuke my daughter" "telling us we are not welcome." He told a child to be quiet. He didn't ask that she be removed, he didn't impose a no-children rule, and he may have been looking at someone kneeling in the pew nearby struggling with cancer, or abuse, or literally God knows what, that only the priest knew about. All we have is one woman's judgment of his conduct as being "rude" and "shocking" as compared to the mother busy with her "calling of motherhood" and negotiating "the spirit world."
Haven't any of you ever met women like that? I nursed my children at church, I spent plenty of time with the joys of milk and excrement, and it was actually was marvelous in many ways, but thank God for the adults in my life and my church who would not let me be caught up in it all to the extent that I would take offense if someone told my child to be quiet.
I really don't believe what I'm reading here.
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with a little child being glad to see her priest and wanting to say hello to him before the service starts? How is this bad behaviour?
How did we start talking about kids not having firm bedtimes and disrupting the service? And how did a Mum who was upset at a priest who spoke to her child in a way no adult in the church would tolerate become an example of a self-centred and irresponsible mother who can't tolerate having adults speak to her children?
What does Jesus think of all this, I wonder? I think we've lost the plot somewhere...
Personally, I find people who hog the comment section of other people's blogs much more annoying than noisy children in church. Your mileage may vary, of course.
ReplyDeleteOh, and what Father Tim said.
"...upset at a priest who spoke to her child in a way no adult in the church would tolerate." So adults cannot be told to be quiet either? I guess that's the divide here. We have music before church begins, sometimes long involved Bach fugues and the like, sometimes piano pieces our youthful musicians have practiced for many weeks. Before and during that, there are people who are deep in prayer in the pews. In this setting, I don't think Jesus would mind asking people to be quiet, adults or children.
ReplyDeleteSorry if my comments and presence annoy you, allegra. I think Mimi understands, as much as we may disagree on this one.
Susan, you said:
ReplyDelete... but I haven't seen any others say that it is the parent's or parents' responsibility to teach children how to behave in church as well as movie theaters, concerts and restaurants.
I said earlier in the comments:
Klady, I did not mean to suggest that parents should exercise no restraint on the behavior of their children. Of course, there are limits.
I must say that I am a little surprised by what seems to me an anti-children bias in some of the comments.
If children are out of control, surely there is a way for the rector to address the problem with the parents privately.
Why are you all so ready to believe the account this woman has given?
ReplyDeleteMaybe because some of us have experienced the glares of little old ladies (no offense, Mimi!) who have forgotten what it's like to try to keep children entertained and quiet for long periods of time?
Klady, I love you, hon---but honestly! People are bringing their children to church, instead of staying home to watch cartoons or something, and you're complaining?!?!
If there is truly a problem with the *parents,* then surely the leadership of the church needs to meet with them and try to figure out something?
Get creative! Do a children's chapel or Sunday School during grown-up worship, so the adults can have contemplative time. That's what we do in our parish.
Pax,
Doxy
I must say that I am a little surprised by what seems to me an anti-children bias in some of the comments.
ReplyDeleteI'm not, Mimi. I see it all the time. We pay lip service to how much we love children in this culture, but we lie.
Go to any airport and watch people give Oscar-worthy performances of distaste when they realize they have to sit next to a small child...
But when those attitudes get expressed in church, I'm afraid Tim has it right---we've lost the plot somehow.
FTR, my children are almost abnormally well-behaved in public. But they both suffered from terrible stranger anxiety, which made them clingy and quiet. I sometimes envied those parents whose children were more...outgoing.
Well, Tim, obviously this story pushed some buttons for some people. Those of us who get the most upset about behavior in church are probably the ones who have experienced screaming children being totally ignored by their parents. Yes, I have seen that happen, and I hear those same parents saying things like "My child goes to bed when he is ready, and never before" whatever.
ReplyDeleteSo yes, routine is good for children.
There was a parent who actually decked an usher at our church who asked him to take his child out of church until he could calm down!
Well, the parent actually waited until he had gone out in the Narthex before he hit the usher.
Doxy, I'm not complaining about the children being here or making noise now and then. The problem is that in today's climate adults, clergy or otherwise, are not allowed to cross children or their parents, ever. I think that's wrong. I also think it's wrong to expect clergy to act like some kind of super-human being or surrogate parent or godparent.
ReplyDeleteYes, I've had a few old lady frowns towards my kids when they were little, but I didn't let them ruin my day or worry about protecting my children from people who didn't adore them on sight.
Anyway, it's the priest angle that has me hooked here, I'm afraid. If it was an old lady, would anyone be writing a national article on it? No, it's a priest who at worst was grumpy and nervous about the service or at best was trying to make a quiet, sacred space. Like this is somehow scandalous non-Christian behavior? That's what astounds me, Tim. I like a priest who's not afraid of either small children or old ladies, who dares to be human. But somewhere along the line, being crotchety became a cardinal sin, and the Family reigns supreme, even on the progressive side of the church aisle. When are people going to start worrying about real love rather than flying appearances, taking offense as such trifles?
This was quite the thread. I will simply say two things here-
ReplyDeleteKlady, thank you for the clarification.
Tim Chesterton, what you said.
Peace unto all.
Sorry Mimi, I missed it.
ReplyDeleteI actually have nothing against children. I am sort of an old lady, so I might not be able to remember, but I don't think that I said anything bad about kids.....It's the parents who, as I just said, pay no attention to their children's behavior that get to me...
There are not a lot of kids in our church now. It's across the street from the university, a lot of the parish is over 50. The teenagers have all gone to college. There are no inbetweeners. But we do have a real crop of babies and they are welcomed and loved by almost everyone, including me :-)
Each person comes to worship for their own reason. For some it is the boisterousness of community, for some it is the oasis of quiet in an otherwise wildly hectic world. All should be honoured and space made for all.
ReplyDeleteWe make room for acceptable noise from children in our worship because we are not quiet ourselves. And, yes Klady, that has as much to do with my style and influence as with the desires of the people but I believe that is why the Spirit called me to this place. The seeds were already planted before I arrived.
I do recognize the value of silence and quiet meditation. I use it myself. If my people expressed such a need I would structure that into the service as well. The only times our services are truly chaotic are on the major feast days, because I believe that those events were chaotic in themselves and that we should take time just to experience them. There is time for quiet and to reflect on the events on the Sundays following.
My services are not innovative - anything goes so that people will come - I follow the traditional order of the services. Every June I check with vestry for feedback on the services - is there something they want change, have some of the things we been trying not worked for them. What would they like to see more often. I learned long ago that worship does not work unless it resonates with the people.
So while I respect that you like the more traditional setting and I would try to accomadate you here, I also acknowledge that each of us find the resonnance in different ways and I believe that what we do here is what works for this communmity.
Opposite the children's area, during the week, I have set up a quiet mediation area with various aids for mediation. That is available to anyone who wishes to use it during the week. It is also where I hold small services such as a healing service. So far, no one has made use of it, other than me.
The other night, we held a Taize service. It was a powerful experience for many as it was the first a number of the people had experienced. We try to do our best to accomadate the needs of the people. Just because we have one preferred style of worship does not mean that we ignore or do not try to meet the preferred styles of others. It just isn't that black and white.
Love and Prayers,
Ann Marie
When I was a much younger priest than I am now, a server made a mistake about something. Apparently - I have no memory of this, but I found out about it later - my face showed that i was annoyed. The server in question was a very fragile person. She never came back.
ReplyDeleteNow, I can get on my high horse and say that the server should have been more mature. Fact is, she wasn't - through no fault of her own. I caused one of these little ones to stumble. I have forgiven myself over time, but I'm going to do my level best never, ever, ever to do anything like that again.
And I don't think I'm being overly perfectionistic here. Jesus told us that the day will come when we have to give account for every careless word.
And, Klady, if a person was causing a disruption in a service I was leading, I would ask them politely to stop. I would not say, "Shhh! Be quiet!"
My problem is still that I can't see this child's behaviour as disruptive. If an adult was delighted to see me and wanted to greet me before the service, would I see that as reprehensible enough to say "Shhh! Be quiet!"? I somehow doubt it!
But then, I'm only a clap-happy evangelical - what do i know?!:)
Well, this was quite a thread, and it seemed to touch several nerves. I see the purpose of the gathering of the community as a coming together to worship God, not as a performance, nor is it time for extended meditative prayer, although there can be periods of quiet.
ReplyDeleteIf we cannot welcome families with children lovingly, and accept a degree of noise and disorder, then we have lost our way, and we cannot call ourselves inclusive or welcoming.
Grandmere, I absolutely agree with you.
ReplyDeleteI get distracted by running, shouting children (or muttering adults), and can get annoyed also. But a one-year-old in her mother's arms, saying hi to her priest? Not even close.
Honestly I don't see the connection.
WAIT WAIT --- it was 10 minutes before the service - not in the middle of high solemnity. YIKES -- what Tim said - yes. I too worked at a Native church -- the kids went in and out - visited with elders who smiled fondly. It was one of the most holy congregations I have known.
ReplyDeleteMimi,
ReplyDeleteI apologize for my behavior here yesterday. I have become what I can't stand in others, a person who goes off the deep end simply because I can. There is no excuse.
I'm no expert on priests, but I know lots of other people, so... is it possible that the priest in question was just having a "moment?" We expect members of the clergy to behave better than the rest of us, but they're just regular people after all. (And if snapping at this little kid is the worst thing he ever does in his career, God bless him.)
ReplyDeletePJ, I don't know. Snapping at a toddler in her mother's arms when she tries to reach out to him? I'm not inclined to cut him much slack.
ReplyDeleteOf course not -- I'm just saying we don't know the whole story, and when you consider the vast scope of child abuse at the hands of the clergy, this is pretty minimal.
ReplyDeleteWhat a thread! As one who has never had children, but have taught all ages, I am somewhat frustrated with what to do with children in Church. I love having them there but I don't want them running around. I don't mind periodic noises or even crying. But when a child is really fussy or mightily unhappy, I think that parents need to be able to take them out.
ReplyDeleteIt is the parents who ignore their childrens bad behavior that bother me. Yes, I will call a kid down during children's sermons if they are in my charge. As pastor or priest, I figure in that child's life just as surely as does the parent. But I do try to do so in a way that the child knows that I still love him/her.
I understand Klady tho. I agree that it is important for parents to prepare and nurture a child during the service. When parents have children in the service, they have an obligation to help the child to be a part of the service as best they can.
Yes, this does mean that parents don't have 'alone time' during the service while their children are there. It is part of the cost of having children.
At the same time, I think that there is a certain amount of putting up with children is the cost of the congregation to have young families as a part of the parish. It takes a parish to raise a Christian. We need to give and take when it comes to children in church.
Mimi- did you have any idea just how much and what kind of conversation this would engender?
ReplyDeleteWow, what a fascinating thread.
I love your blog Grandmere, truly I do.
Fran, I had no idea. I just followed the lead from Ann. Thanks for the kind words.
ReplyDeleteYou don't do badly for yourself in the blog business either. You have a different mix of visitors, so I like to visit there, too.
What a wonderful discussion! I'm only saddened that I didn't stumble across this blog sooner.
ReplyDeleteAnd Grandmere, may I have permission to sincerely thank your blog readers for sharing their opinions on my piece? This was such an enlightening and illuminating thread to read...although, I will confess, my husband and I did have a good laugh at someone thinking we were "those parents" who can't discipline their children and don't enforce bedtime. I apologize for laughing, but...the shoe just didn't fit. :)
Anyway, I loved what you all brought to this discussion -- so many people caring so passionately about how best to be the Body of Christ on this earth. I am truly moved. I think discussions like these are exactly what we need more of, as we work out how best to live in --and show others -- the light of God's love.
My article in Episcopal Life was actually a reprint of a column that I write monthly for Literary Mama on the subject of faith and parenting. If I may be so bold as to share the link, it's http://www.literarymama.com/columns/meandmyhouse. I would love to see you all over there; the most recent column is always open for comments!
The Peace of the Lord,
~Elrena
How wonderful it would have been if the priest had stopped, picked up that little one, and said "I am SO glad you're here today!"
ReplyDeleteThat little act of love would have no doubt made the mother and child very happy, and would probably have softened the hearts of people in the congregation who had perhaps become annoyed with the child. I think it would also have helped the priest feel that he had reacted in the way he should have, rather than in the way he evidently wanted to.
If we believe that in some ways, our Priests represent God in our midst, then that act of kindness would have reflected well the call of all Christians to love God, and their neighbors as themselves.
I remember a beloved interim priest (serving in the same parish where this story took place), who replaced his Sunday sermon with an informal talk directed especially to the young people who were there - because one of their friends died tragically the night before. That insightful act of compassion will never be forgotten by those who were there. The well-planned order of the service was replaced that day with an act of love.
The only point I'm trying to make is that the public behavior of our clergy reflects the heart they bring to their ministry and their people, and, is set forth as an example to the congregation.
I think generous compassion is a winner every time.
Anonymous, indeed, generous compassion is always a winner. Thanks for visiting.
ReplyDelete