Faith is now quite uncertain. I'm no longer acting-as-if.
Tuesday, September 15, 2009
Question Of The Day
As those of us in the US discuss whether the Episcopal Church will or will not sign the Ridley-Cambridge Draft Covenant, can anyone say with certainty that the Church of England, as an established church, will be able to sign the document?
I believe that as the established church in England, by law the Church of England cannot adopt any agreement that would in any way subordinate it to an outside body; by law the Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church, and no earthly authority can be placed above her.
To adopt this misguided thing, Parliament would not only have to pass it, but would also need to add something about it overriding multiple laws on religion dating from the Reformation forward. Not very likely.
The basis of the Church of England is that it has no rule from beyond, and that's the legal position before it gets to parliament. It would only get to parliament if the legal position had to be changed. The idea, though, is that the Covenant would operate voluntarily and always allowing for independence of the Church - so as soon as the Church is seen as altering behaviour to fit in with the demands of a new centre above, then there will be legal challenges. The Covenant is is a recipe for legal challenges as soon as an argument is made that it demanded one position not another.
Of course they will try and make sure that it is seen as purely voluntary in all it implies, should it get passed.
Jeffrey and TheMe, you say that the approval of Parliament would need to come early on, and that they won't do it.
If I understand you, Adrian, you think it might be possible for the English Church to sign the Covenant if it was made to seem purely voluntary, and the legal challenges would come afterward as implementation of the terms of the Covenant begin.
Impractical a man as he seems to me, I wonder if the ABC has thought through the process of making the covenant workable in his own country. Who is advising him? Either way, a working Covenant doesn't seem possible in the English church.
Of course the parliamentary business could be discharged with if disestablishment was a precursor to the covenant. I am not convinced that there would be much support for that idea at the moment.
Voluntary or otherwise, the covenants demands would place the Queen and government as subject to the provinces elsewhere in matters regarding their church.
Her Majesty's first minister who actually makes the decisions in a Scot. He is not Anglican and has expressed some considerable discomfort with the decision making role. He also is a supporter of a reduced role in Lords for the bishops.
I think all the elements are there for a Welshman to cause the disestablishment of the church a Welshman established.
Why are so few addressing the matter of whether the "mother church" can sign the Covenant? It seems to me that this should be settled early in the process.
The US bishops who want to rush the Covenant through speak often of the Anglican identity that they want to hang on to so they will continue to be part of the "church Catholic". It would then appear to be vital to have the English church part of the Covenant community.
Jim, I don't see disestablishment of the CofE in the near future, not soon enough for those who want to hurry the Covenant through.
I believe Parliament would have to approve it.....good luck!
ReplyDeleteElizabeth, I think so, too. I wonder if the Archbishop of Canterbury is looking into that, as he urges the rest of the churches to sign the Covenant.
ReplyDeleteParliament would have to approve it and will throw it out, if it ever gets that far.
ReplyDeleteI believe that as the established church in England, by law the Church of England cannot adopt any agreement that would in any way subordinate it to an outside body; by law the Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church, and no earthly authority can be placed above her.
ReplyDeleteTo adopt this misguided thing, Parliament would not only have to pass it, but would also need to add something about it overriding multiple laws on religion dating from the Reformation forward. Not very likely.
The basis of the Church of England is that it has no rule from beyond, and that's the legal position before it gets to parliament. It would only get to parliament if the legal position had to be changed. The idea, though, is that the Covenant would operate voluntarily and always allowing for independence of the Church - so as soon as the Church is seen as altering behaviour to fit in with the demands of a new centre above, then there will be legal challenges. The Covenant is is a recipe for legal challenges as soon as an argument is made that it demanded one position not another.
ReplyDeleteOf course they will try and make sure that it is seen as purely voluntary in all it implies, should it get passed.
Jeffrey and TheMe, you say that the approval of Parliament would need to come early on, and that they won't do it.
ReplyDeleteIf I understand you, Adrian, you think it might be possible for the English Church to sign the Covenant if it was made to seem purely voluntary, and the legal challenges would come afterward as implementation of the terms of the Covenant begin.
Impractical a man as he seems to me, I wonder if the ABC has thought through the process of making the covenant workable in his own country. Who is advising him? Either way, a working Covenant doesn't seem possible in the English church.
Of course the parliamentary business could be discharged with if disestablishment was a precursor to the covenant. I am not convinced that there would be much support for that idea at the moment.
ReplyDeleteVoluntary or otherwise, the covenants demands would place the Queen and government as subject to the provinces elsewhere in matters regarding their church.
Her Majesty's first minister who actually makes the decisions in a Scot. He is not Anglican and has expressed some considerable discomfort with the decision making role. He also is a supporter of a reduced role in Lords for the bishops.
ReplyDeleteI think all the elements are there for a Welshman to cause the disestablishment of the church a Welshman established.
FWIW
jimB
Why are so few addressing the matter of whether the "mother church" can sign the Covenant? It seems to me that this should be settled early in the process.
ReplyDeleteThe US bishops who want to rush the Covenant through speak often of the Anglican identity that they want to hang on to so they will continue to be part of the "church Catholic". It would then appear to be vital to have the English church part of the Covenant community.
Jim, I don't see disestablishment of the CofE in the near future, not soon enough for those who want to hurry the Covenant through.