Bishop Spong feels that it is way past time to treat the haters as if their argument has a moral and intellectual equivalence to the voices of inclusion and equality. I've felt that way for a long time, and I'm happy to see such a strong statement from Bishop Spong.
I'm about at the end of my tolerance for discussion of certain aspects of inclusion and equality for LGTB folks, too. To a large extent I agree with Bp. Spong, but I'd stretch his limits a bit.
I would like to protest the use of the word 'haters' here.
ReplyDeleteProtest noted, Tim.
ReplyDeleteI acknowledge that not all those opposed to GLTB marriage and GLTB bishops are haters, but as I see it, the moral ground for this stance is crumbling beneath them. It truly is a matter of justice and equality, and thus a moral question.
A friend at Integrity sent it to me and I read it in its entirety. My only thought was that is was about time someone finally came out with it. Bravo, Bishop Spong.
ReplyDeleteI won't discuss the biology or genetics of GLTB persons. That's a dead end. We don't have enough knowledge. Anyway, that doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that when someone tells me, "This is who I am," I believe them. Who would know better? I won't go into "lifestyle choice" discussions, except to say that it's not a true description.
ReplyDeleteI don't know that "hate" is the wrong word, at all. Hate is love's dark side, and these people claim love as their motivator. I'd stick with hater.
ReplyDeleteMark, I suppose it makes a difference if you're on the direct receiving end of the prejudice, which I am not. I don't walk in your shoes.
ReplyDeleteWho are 'these people'. Mark?
ReplyDeleteYou really don't know, Tim?
ReplyDeleteI wasn't aware you'd been in Antartica all this time!
I don't play coy little games.
I'm still looking for an answer to my own problem - how do I agree with Spong and stop talking to people who do hate and lie about us, while not abandoning the debate completely?
ReplyDeleteThere are people like Tim, who I am delighted to count among my friends, who truly does not hate, much as we often cannot understand how he can hold the views he does.
The people Spong is referring to are those genuinely sense of their own superiority, the ones who ignore science when it doesn't suit them, the ones who keep clobbering us with a handful of bible verses, the ones without a shred of compassion.
And most of all, the ones who actively lobby in the church for our inferior status to continue.
So - I don't want to talk to these people any longer. But unlike Tim, they're the active ones, the ones who are dragging the debate down, who are grabbing political power in the church, who are setting the agenda.
How can I take them on and wrest that power from them if I don't talk to them?
And if I simply opt out, am I not abdicating my responsibility towards lgbt Christians in less welcoming places than the UK, towards gay priests everywhere and towards all those in Africa who tell us they depend on our support?
I mean - look at Uganda! Even most liberal blogs aren't even running the story!
Am I really to remain quiet when genuine hatemongers strutt their stuff?
And yet, and yet.... I so agree with Spong!
Answers on a postcard please.
Erika, I didn't write a post on the situation in Uganda, simply because Elizabeth at Telling Secrets did such a superb job of emphasizing the strange silence of Lambeth on the matter. I linked to her post and urged my visitors to read it.
ReplyDeleteMimi,
ReplyDeleteI wasn't talking about you, of course! I really meant TA et all.
I'm glad to hear that, Erika.
ReplyDeleteHow are you going to wrest power from them with talk, Erika?
ReplyDeleteYou don't talk to them. You talk to others, and make them see how absolutely ridiculous the ones you don't talk to are.
Frankly, we are better than those people. Yes, I say that knowing you will disagree and you are wrong. We know how much darkness there is in us, and we choose the best path we can. They never look, don't want to know, and force their darkness on others.
We are better. 90% of Mankind is better. Those are the ones you speak to, not those who hate.
And don't be so sure hate always has an unpleasant face, even to the hated. For those who never look within, their hate looks like love.
Mark
ReplyDeleteI've always engaged on the blogs with those who post there, and on the anti gay side, they tend to be the rigid haters. I have never thought I could change their minds, but have always believed that I'm really talking to the moderate lurkers, exposing the fallacy of the anti-gay argument and the real motivation behind a lot of people's comments.
If you are saying that this approach doesn't work, then I don't really know what I personally can do. I have no access to "the others", I am here in a small English village tapping away at my keyboard, I only have access to those who make themselves known on the Intertubes.
So what do I do instead of continuing to talk?
I didn't say what you're doing doesn't work, if you're addressing the moderate lurkers. But, if you try to reason with the hate-filled-ones, then you are hurting your own cause by acting as if they had a point worth responding to.
ReplyDeleteJust turn to the others and say, "What they just told you is a lie."
Mark
ReplyDeletenow there's a thought! Thank you!