AN INTERVIEW WITH ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

Yesterday afternoon, I listened to and read the transcript of Archbishop Desmond Tutu's latest interview on Public Radio. What a godly and delightful man.

Archbishop Desmond Tutu: There's no question about the reality of evil, of injustice, of suffering, but, you know, at the center of this existence is a heart beating with love. You know, that you and I and all of us are incredible. I mean, we really are remarkable things. That we are, as a matter of fact, made for goodness.

Archbishop Tutu begins the interview with a prayer:

Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of thy faithful people and kindle in them the fire of thy love. Send forth thy spirit and they shall be made and thou shalt renew the face of the earth. Amen.

I know the prayer with slight changes in wording from my Roman Catholic elementary and high school days.

Ms. Tippett: Right. You had spiritual companions.

Archbishop Tutu: Yes. They are more than that. I mean, they are people who helped to form me. And then discovering that the Bible could be such dynamite. I subsequently used to say if these white people had intended keeping us under they shouldn't have given us the Bible. Because, whoa, I mean, it's almost as if it is written specifically just for your situation. I mean, the many parts of it that were so germane, so utterly to the point for us …

Ms. Tippett: Can you recall one of those early discoveries as the Bible as dynamite? Some teaching that you suddenly saw as so relevant?

Archbishop Tutu: Well, it's actually right the very first thing. I mean, when you discover that apartheid sought to mislead people into believing that what gave value to human beings was a biological irrelevance, really, skin color or ethnicity, and you saw how the scriptures say it is because we are created in the image of God, that each one of us is a God-carrier. No matter what our circumstances may be, no matter how awful, no matter how deprived you could be, it doesn't take away from you this intrinsic worth. One saw just how significant it was.

Ah yes. The Bible is dynamite, right from the beginning. The creation story is the source, in great part, of my sense of myself as a person of value.

Ms. Tippett: There is a lot of violence in South African society right now, and that violence is connected, as you say, to these 300 years that couldn't possibly be resolved by the Commission.

Archbishop Tutu: Yeah.

Ms. Tippett: I mean, how do you think about what's happening now and that as part of this project?

Archbishop Tutu: I think, I mean, that we have very gravely underestimated the damage that apartheid inflicted on all of us. You know, the damage to our psyches, the damage that has made — I mean, it shocked me. I went to Nigeria when I was working for the World Council of Churches, and I was due to fly to Jos. And so I go to Lagos airport and I get onto the plane and the two pilots in the cockpit are both black. And whee, I just grew inches. You know, it was fantastic because we had been told that blacks can't do this.

Ms. Tippett: Right.

Archbishop Tutu: And we have a smooth takeoff and then we hit the mother and father of turbulence. I mean, it was quite awful, scary. Do you know, I can't believe it but the first thought that came to my mind was, "Hey, there's no white men in that cockpit. Are those blacks going to be able to make it?" And of course, they obviously made it — here I am. But the thing is, I had not known that I was damaged to the extent of thinking that somehow actually what those white people who had kept drumming into us in South Africa about our being inferior, about our being incapable, it had lodged some way in me.

As a result of living many years under the thumb of an oppressive government, even Archbishop Tutu, who seems a model of a whole man, suffers from damage from which he has never fully recovered. But then he goes on to say:

Archbishop Tutu: Well, yeah, but I have to say, you know, if you are devoid of hope then roll over and disappear quietly. Hope says, hey, things can, things will, be better because God has intended for it to be so. You know? At no point will evil and injustice and oppression and all of the negative things have the last word. And, yes, I mean, there's no question about the reality of evil, of injustice, of suffering, but at the center of this existence is a heart beating with love. You know, that you and I and all of us are incredible. I mean, we really are remarkable things that we are, as a matter of fact, made for goodness. And it's not a smart aleck thing to say; it's just a fact. Because all of us, even when we have degenerated, know that the wrong isn't what we should be, isn't what we should be doing. We're fantastic. I mean, we really are amazing.

Archbishop Tutu is fantastic and amazing. I recommend listening to the entire interview or reading the transcript.

H/T to Ann Fontaine at The Lead for the link to the interview.