“If we had been holier people,” Templeton wrote, “we would have been angrier oftener.” Which translated means: Never endure what is not in itself essentially good, or designed to make everybody’s world a better place, or, in the end, really good for your own development. To violate any of those things is to violate the will of God for creation. God, scripture shows us, expects us to take a stand.Bro John Anthony posted in St. Cuthbert's Cottage
~Sr. Joan Chittister
"From the Heart"
Friday, August 10, 2012
"GOD...EXPECTS US TO TAKE A STAND"
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I guess you think this is a nice quote since you posted it without comment. But having barely survived a strict fundamentalist church, it fills me with horror and indignation. "What is truly good, etc.": well that can be, and has been, so easily taken to FORBID everything in the world: no smoking, no drinking, no card playing, no dancing, no paintings, no statues, no poetry, no non-Disney movies, no long hair on boys, no sex, no masturbation, no homosex, and don't-you-even-dare-THINK about sex, you wretched doubleplusungood worm, you!
ReplyDeleteOn the surface, it sounds all sweet and Christian, yes. But it's the cellophane wrapper on a sticky, indigestible chunk of fascist rigidity and control. Been there, done that.
NO.THANK.YOU.
Russ, I understood the statement to connect with Jesus' admonishment against being lukewarm. I think you can misuse almost any good thought or good words to do harm. I guess I relate to the statement because I am angry at injustice much of the time, too much of the time for my own good, and we coast along as though everything is all right.
DeleteWe see things differently out of our own particular cultural influences and biases, so it's fine if you don't agree. IMHO, your "fascist rigidity" description takes the objection too far, but that's me.
You take stands, don't you?
It all depends on "what is truly good", doesn't it, Russ?
Deleteno smoking, no drinking, no card playing, no dancing, no paintings, no statues, no poetry, no non-Disney movies, no long hair on boys, no sex, no masturbation, no homosex, and don't-you-even-dare-THINK about sex
Well, I'll agree w/ the Fundies re smoking {cough, cough}. But the rest, if not intrinsically good, certainly CAN be good. Ergo, the Fundies are effed-up.
And ergo, I agree w/ Sister Chittister (re Templeton, I reserve judgment).
Who is this Templeton person? I posted because the quote was endorsed by Sr Joan, whom I admire very much.
DeleteI'm thinking it's the "Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion" guy.
DeleteSome of the winners have been pretty good, but some have been quite conservative---I think Tom "The Busybody out of Durham" Wright won? (and, as far as I know, none have been LGBT. If ANYBODY deserves such a prize, it would be Our +Gene!)
JCF, I expect you're right. He was the only Templeton of note who might fit the quote. Yes, it would be good if +Gene was chosen to receive the prize.
DeleteThis one maybe?
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton
"I am angry at injustice much of the time, too much of the time for my own good, and we coast along as though everything is all right."
I know how that feels and where that can go. I had some angry words with a friend of mine over her attitude about something she did which I really considered unjust. Another friend (friend of mine and my friend), inserting herself into this p***ing contest said, "We should pick our battles." Rolled eyes and said: "Well sometimes the battle picks us and we don't walk away." She is a member of the small but growing GLBT community at my church which I wholeheartedly support and I hope nurture. I saw the oops light bulb go off and I hope she will never, ever say that again. Given my choice I would rather not have to choose battles. The battle with my other friend was not about this issue.
I think I saw the quote: "Never endure what is not in itself essentially good, or designed to make everybody’s world a better place, or, in the end, really good for your own development. To violate any of those things is to violate the will of God for creation. God, scripture shows us, expects us to take a stand."
So for me "take a stand" means take it every time on every issue.
As I've said upthread, John Templeton of the Templeton Prize is probably the source of the quote.
DeleteIt's family members with whom I find myself in "discussions" most often. On occasion, we've had to agree to avoid certain subjects, because we've reached the point where we shed more heat than light. Thank goodness for my blog, where I can let off steam.
Sorry I am the blogger klutz. My comment posted before yours and JCF's but apparently wasn't in the thread in the right order.
DeleteI always appreciate how you are so willing to take a stand against injustice. Ater I posted that comment it did occur to me that for me my problem isn't "picking the battles" but my approach to how take to the stand. I have patched things up with my friend but I noticed that the stand others have taken toward her is that ever so genteel Southern deep freeze. That is a real OUCH!
No, Bonnie, you are not a klutz. The reply function causes later comments to be posted higher up than earlier ones, which is sometimes confusing.
DeleteI pick my battles because of time and energy constraints. I am only one person, and I can't take up every issue.
Ah yes, the Southern deep freeze, however genteel, can be hurtful. I'm glad you and your friend have patched things up.
Mimi, imagine this quote coming from the mouth of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or that ilk. Then re-read it. I think you will get a very different impression. The problem is with the line "the Will of God" - which is always code for "do as I say, damn you!"
ReplyDeleteAnd for JCF: moral panic and hysteria are not confined to members of fundamentalist religions; they recur frequently throughtout the mass of humankind. As witness the current situation with tobacco, which has in just twenty years or so gone from being a bad habit to being a nearly unspeakable sin, and will soon be outlawed altogether, I have no doubt. The parallel with the Prohibition movement that our great-grandparents were so enraptured by a hundred years ago is nearly exact. I won't take up space on Mimi's blog, but anyone can go read up on the history of that. Though it's remarkable how the same people who inveight against tobacco are often rah-rah supporters of legalizing marijuana - which of course makes no sense whatsoever.
It's that mentality, based on cant and hypocrisy, of THIS IS A SIN but THAT IS OKAY that I take a stand on. There are sins, to be sure, and some are gross, and some on the other hand are venial. Who gets to decide which is which is rarely subject to sweet reason, but rather to custom, moral fashions, and the whims of crowds. People who are sure they are living a holy life are often closer to devils than angels. There's a quote for the day.
Russ,
ReplyDeleteYour anger is yours and I understand it - I married that right wing religious experience as well. But this you are striking out by broadening a quote that was not meant that way is taking it a bit too far.
I guess for you I am glad that you know where you stand. But ANY quote and saying can be interpreted different ways, and that you're putting your spin on it instead of stepping back and seeing where Mimi is coming in my own opinion is just as destructive it isn't truly a part of any discussion but simply lecturing.
Russ, I did as you said, and I concede that the words may have had a different meaning coming out of the mouths of Falwell or Robertson, but I don't see my reading as wrong. Words can be twisted in many different ways.
ReplyDeleteI respect your reaction to and interpretation of the words, but mine was different. Having said that, I always welcome your comments here, whether we agree or disagree.
Never endure what is not in itself essentially good, or designed to make everybody’s world a better place...
As I see it, God's will is always mercy and justice, and those who spin the will of God in another direction are just plain wrong.
And what Ciss B says.
Mimi, I really ought to get a delayed timer for this blog-comment business, I tend to spout off as I'm sure you realize by now. I apologize if I sounded "lecturing" which was not my conscious intention - though I see now that it would have been more politic to ask, "could this be interpreted as . . " rather than "this means . . . ".
ReplyDeleteAs to what the words mean, I'm looking just at the words themselves, not knowing anything about this Templeton - and yes I think they are susceptible of different interpretations as you said. To me, and you feel differently of course, they sound like a counsel of perfection and super-righteousness: the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, who tithe the mint and dill and cumin, but neglect the weightier matters of justice and mercy, who teach the commandments of men instead of the commandments of God. I have sat through many and many a weary sermon that started out just so nicely and ended with hellfire condemnation of every little thing in the world that wasn't "essentially good."
But your mileage may vary, of course.
Russ, it's fine to spout off, and I may spout off back. I read the quote as how we are to care for and about others and ourselves and that we should take a stand when we see only the privileged few getting the benefits.
DeleteYou and I view the world from different backgrounds and contexts, and it's OK if we sometimes disagree.