SJ So what happens to Canon Pemberton?Kudos to Sarah Julian for not letting the - err - ABC get away with his - err - avoidance tactics. Most interviewers do. The ABC's responses are beyond pathetic. What message does Justin send when he refuses even to repeat his own words? Not everyone in England pays attention each time he speaks. Is he embarrassed by his words? If this is the best he can do, perhaps he might consider refusing to grant interviews.
ABC “Well, the Bishop of Lincoln .. he’s actually in Lincoln Diocese .. the Bishop of Lincoln has commented on that and I’ve said all I’m going to say on that, really; I’ve commented on that a great deal recently and I don’t intend to add to it.”
SJ We’ve not spoken to you here on BBC Radio Nottingham, though, and he actually does live in our diocese and does some work in our diocese so I’d appreciate if you could, you know, reiterate that, then …
ABC “No, as I’ve said, I’ve said on nationally and it’s been in all the press and on the radio and, and I’m just not going to add to it.”
SJ So you won’t repeat what you’ve said already?
ABC “Er, no.
SJ What will happen in future when more and more priests either do this or bless a gay wedding themselves?
ABC “Well, the Church is heavily involved at the moment in discussions about policy, organised discussions which will take, er, involving loads and loads of people from all over the world and, er, all kinds of activities and that’s going to take quite a long time to do and as I say, I don’t want to preempt those discussion so I’m not going to comment further on that.”
SJ But you must have an idea of what the Church should do in these instances ‘cus it’s already happening, you must have had a plan for what will happen to priests who do this.
ABC “Well, that’s been announced publicly, it’s on the record, erm, but errrr, as I say, I’m not intending to add to what I’ve said previously.”
SJ And if priests do break the rules, are they going to be kicked out of the Church of England?
ABC “There’s processes for, errr, what happens and it’s very much down to local bishops and umm, yeah, that’s, err, you need to ask the relevant bishop about that.”
SJ But you’re the head of the Church of England, they must come to you and ask you those questions, what do you tell them?
ABC “Well, actually the Church of England doesn’t work that way, we don’t have an Anglican Pope, we operate on a collegial, collective basis and errrr, it’s very much shared, errr, decision making, and there was a paper published at the end of errr January on that.”
SJ How do you think God feels about gay marriage?
ABC “Well as I’ve said I’ve commented an awful lot about it, I’m not going to add further to what I’ve said already.”
SJ But how do you feel about the current situation and the turmoil that this is in and how this looks to the rest of society?
ABC “One of the things … there’s always disagreements in Church, there’s always been disagreements in Church, it’s, it’s varied over the centuries on different issues; there’s always been disagreement. One of the key things in the Church is that the Church is a family, it’s not an institution, it’s not a political party, erm, it.. it.. the way we operate is that we are bound together by the love of Christ, and in the way we disagree we have to express that love to each other.”
SJ We have two women here in Nottinghamshire who we’ve spoken to, they are planning to get married, the two of them. One of them actually works for the Church and she wants to become a priest. She feels that she’s had to choose between getting married and her calling to the Church. Is there any hope for her, or how does that make you feel?
ABC “Well, I can only repeat what I’ve said before, that we’re, there’s a lot of discussion going on, err, we’re listening very, very carefully to people, but I don’t want to preempt that by adding further to the numerous things I’ve said on all kinds of media, including the BBC before.”
SJ But not here in Nottinghamshire, and these are Nottinghamshire people who …
ABC “I rather suspect that the BBC does reach in Nottingham, not only through the local radio.”
You may wonder about my excessive interest in the affairs of the Church of England and the Archbishop of Canterbury, and you may even call it an obsession if you like, but I have friends in England whose lives are already gravely and adversely affected by the words and direction of the leadership of the English church. As a fellow Anglican, I care about them and all the others who pay the price for the delay of justice and equality for all members of the church, clergy and laity - the delay seemingly without end.
He likes to play his own little game of pretend...in this case it's hide the weenie. ++Justin, please resign.
ReplyDeleteLen, he won't resign, but he truly ought to stop giving interviews.
Deletewell, it's a problem because we now have another ABC charged with coming up with answers to satisfy people who are deeply opposed to the others idea of morality, so there really is no answer that will satisfy or pacify everyone. Of course, societies grow in understanding of human
ReplyDeletebehavior and we in America and Europe feel that we have progressed in our understanding. The Global South, not so much! However, they r clinging to a literal reading of the scripture that we gave them so perhaps we should work and wait a bit and try to help them expand their understanding. It is not helpful to demand of the ABC answers that really do not exist. I realize that this idea may be infuriating but violence has never killed an idea yet and there doesn't seem to be a quick peaceful solution except for steady education. It doesn't seem fair to keep demanding that the ABC (whichever one there is at the moment)give you the answer u desire when the people there will not heed it. I agree that he should stop giving interviews where the impossible (at this time) is demanded of him. As it is said, never give an order that u know will not be observed. nij
Nij, when would you estimate that the churches in the Global South will catch up with England? As I see it, it could be decades, if ever. I have no right to demand anything of the ABC, and he most certainly pays no attention to what I say, but I do have a right to express my opinion.
Delete"Justice too long delayed is justice denied." The LGTB members of the Church of England have waited long enough.
You look like a fool (or worse) when you agree to an interview but intend not to say anything.
ReplyDeleteMy thought exactly, Lionel. Why give an interview in the first place? In his final words, Justin seems a tad annoyed by the interviewer's persistence in the face of his determination not to answer her questions.
DeleteHe wasn't helped by his snide dig at local radio, either, and the nastily sarcastic remark in which it was couched.
DeleteKelvin Holdsworth, addressed the rudeness in a comment to my link on Facebook.
DeleteIt is quite acceptable to be a snob in the UK but it is quite unacceptable to appear to be one.
Hey June,
ReplyDeleteI think it was a pathetic interview, but about what I have come to expect. Meanwhile, the horribly sad news that the Episcopal Church of Sudan has at this late, late date, adopted the Anglican Covenant. ;;sigh;; So we can have utterly ineffective leadership in England, or utterly homophobic leadership in Africa. Not a lot of choices there.
FWIW
jimB
Jim, the adoption of the covenant by the Episcopal Church in Sudan is not good news, but, if the covenant is not quite dead, it is moribund.
DeleteYes, kudos to the interviewer for giving ++Justin an opportunity to say absolutely nothing in many variations. I agree: he needs to stop giving interviews. Ducking and dodging and sputtering and "errring" does nothing for him, and only makes the rest of us feel worse about the situation in the CoE.
ReplyDeleteSharon Julian was most certainly more courageous than most interviewers, who tend to be intimidated and back off when Justin refuses to answer their questions.
DeleteI'll apologise now and say up front that I don't really care what ++Justin does or doesn't do about gay marriage.
ReplyDeleteWhat I really do care about is the festering mess that has been developing in the Diocese of Winchester over a report into the way a young and vulnerable woman was subjected to abuse and then effectively got deported for complaining. ++Justin seems to have no clue about ensuring that the woman gets support, nor yet about bringing the rogue church to heel.
James, real people, friends of mine have been harmed and are presently being harmed by the Church of England's policies, so I see the results of continuing discrimination.
DeleteI don't know the story of what happened in Winchester Diocese, but to turn away from reports of abuse and punish the person who complained is very wrong.
The really telling bit is when he refuses to repeat *his own words*. :/
ReplyDeleteYes. If I had given that interview, I would be mortified.
DeleteAt least he's not Don Sterling! He's really trying not to put his foot into his mouth... but then, he either needs vetted talking points or not agree to interviews.
ReplyDeleteNobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, and Justin may have been caught off guard, but surely he can do better. Sharon Julian, the Grand Inquisitor of Nottinghamshire! Now he knows.
DeleteAre you quite sure this isn't a parody of some kind? Sounds like a perfect satirical script to me.
ReplyDeleteI can feel sorry for Welby as a human being - to be head of an outfit operating in 160 countries is a big, big job, and he is obviously much, much too small to wear those shoes.
But then, he asked for the job, didn't he?
Russ, the text of the interview is no parody. File it in the category of "You can't make this stuff up," as dear, departed Molly Ivins would say.
DeleteNot that you should know, but Welby is not the head of a company that operates in 160 countries. The Archbishop of Canterbury is "the first among equals" in the Anglican Communion which consists of a family of autonomous churches around the world with roots in Anglicanism. That is all. He may wish to be more, but he is not. In my opinion, he'd do better to confine his pastoral oversight to the members of the Church of England.
Well yes as an Episcopalian-on-hold I do know the various national churches are all autonomous - it was Welby himself who was bringing all that up. But even on the much smaller playing field of the CofE itself - Welby is not the man for the job, IMO. Sadly miscast for the role.
DeleteWhat might help is if the office of "first among equals" in the Anglican Communion would be separate from the office of Archbishop of Canterbury. The ABC would then be free to offer the best pastoral oversight to the Church of England.
DeleteAnd I see no reason why the position of "first among equals" should necessarily always be from England. Also, consideration might be given to making the office elective. Why should the British Parliament choose the titular head of the Anglican Communion around the world?
It may come to that. Surely no one can expect Western churches who welcome the presence of gay people as full members of the Body of Christ can long remain in alliance with churches and bishops who favor imprisoning and executing the gays. The problem with the ABC is that he wants to have his cake and eat it too - to be in solidarity with both sides. But it don't work that way, not when lives are on the line, to say nothing of common human dignity.
DeleteRuss, I'm not asking anyone or any church to leave the Anglican Communion, nor is our Presiding Bishop, but there are churches and people in the AC who will not share the Lord's table with Katharine Jefferts Schori because she is a woman. Others object because she is primate of a church that ordains candidates for Holy Orders who are in same-sex partnerships or marriages, blesses SS unions, and allows church weddings for SS couples in states where the marriages are legal.
DeleteThus, for those who object to the policies and practices, they apparently consider that they would somehow be besmirched by sharing communion or even by being present at a meeting with Katharine.
It seems to me that the ABC's first priority is pastoral guidance for the Church of England. Justin apparently thinks differently, and the way he's chosen is to lay heavy burdens on LGTB laity and clergy in the C of E until the African Anglican churches catch up. To be fair, Justin should request all heterosexual couples in the church to refrain from sexual relations until the policies are settled, so the burden is shared equally.
"Faith is not certainty" so perhaps a some umming and erring can be forgiven?
ReplyDeleteForgiven surely, David. I'm fairly certain about that.
DeleteForgiving = Forgetting
DeleteIt is rather difficult to forget when an individual keeps injuring!
AND has he really asked for forgiveness?
Harvey
Harvey, I say The Lord's Prayer every day, so forgiving is what Jesus asks of us and is, for me, not optional, whether a person asks forgiveness or not. And if a person keeps injuring, there's the 70 times 7 lesson in the Gospels.
DeleteForgiving and forgetting are not the same, nor is forgiveness about warm, fuzzy feelings for the person who has offended. The will to forgive is enough, and warm feelings and forgetting may follow or not.
Ian Paul has a different angle here . Some of the people involved engage him in the comments.
ReplyDeleteTim
Tim, thanks for the link. Real people are involved, and, all too often, the real people are talked about rather than listened to, so the exchange at Ian Paul's blog was encouraging for that reason. Real people who are hurt by the policies of the C of E, real people whom I know, are the reason I address the policies of the English church at all.
DeleteThere's also this post by Ian Paul in which Tobias Haller engages in the conversation on the basis of Scripture passages understood as forbidding same sex relationships.
Also, Article XXXII in the Articles of Religion:
Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, are not commanded by God's Law, either to vow the estate of single life, or to abstain from marriage: therefore it is lawful for them, as for all other Christian men, to marry at their own discretion, as they shall judge the same to serve better to godliness.
Yes, I find Ian to be a quite intelligent and approachable voice on a lot of issues.
DeleteAs far as Article 32 is concerned, you must admit, Mimi, that in its original context this applied to heterosexual marriage. The original authors of that Article would not have envisioned it being extended to apply to same-sex marriage, which I'm sure would have been inconceivable to them. There are strong arguments in favour of same-sex marriage, but I don't think Article 32 is one of them.
(Point of interest; I sometimes think that it would increase charity between those of different viewpoints on these issues if we could all get together over a cup of coffee and admit to each other which of the other side's arguments we find the most telling, and which do not trouble us at all. I think we'd all gain a lot of understanding of other people if we did that. Of course, in order for it to work we'd have to be honest enough to admit that we sometimes had doubts about our own position, and that some arguments increased those doubts).
Cheers,
Tim
Tim, of course, the writers of the Articles did not have same sex marriages in mind, but the words say what they say. Likewise, if we venture back into original contexts, several of the arguments from the Scriptures against faithful same sex relationships would dissolve, because the passages do not address those sorts of relationships.
DeleteI agree that if if people on both sides of the issue sat down in a civil conversation and checked off points of disagreement, the two sides may find more agreement than they expect. But you must have LGTB people in the conversation. You can't just talk about them. Where are they in the meetings of the Church of England House of Bishops? If they're there, they are likely in the closet and don't speak from first person experience.
And I keep coming back to Jesus' words admonishing the Pharisees about laying heavy burdens on the shoulders of others without lifting a finger to help