Folks, I believe I may have done myself in last night at the Alpha session last night. I was tired, having spent the day in New Orleans, and my frustrations with the program came out in force.
The title of thie talk was "How Can I Be Sure Of My Faith?" To be honest, I don't often think about being sure of my faith. My concern is, "Do I live my faith? How am I doing with respect to being a disciple of Jesus? Do I walk in the way he has laid out in the Gospels?" OK, so I'm put off by the title at the very start. Is it me? Do I have a bad attitude?
Nicky Gumbel led us in the prayer inviting Jesus into our hearts, yet again. I found myself thinking, "Jesus, if you're not in my heart yet, will the third time be the charm, or will I have to wait for the next time?"
Then Gumbel went on to his talk in which he used the analogy between faith and marriage and being in relationship with God, and that we must experience God in our lives to have true faith. That part of his lecture gave me no problem. So what's wrong?
The camera pans to the rapt members of the audience once again distracted me.
One thing I'll say is that we had a livelier discussion last night, mostly because of my comments which may have seemed disruptive to others there. I mentioned my problem with the title of the session, being sure of my faith, and my unease with with the repeated, "Come into my heart...." prayer. Why over and over? Others in the group explained to me that in the previous prayers, some in Nicky's audience and also some in our group may not have been ready to commit to the prayer on the other occasions, so they must be given other chances. My fellow parishioners were quite kind to me and even laughed at some of my statements - some of which were not really meant to be funny.
Many of those from fundamentalist backgrounds found the Alpha Series a breath of fresh air, because Nicky's style is quite gentle and without pressure, and he preaches the positive, "If you accept Jesus into your heart, you will have eternal life," rather than the negative and scary, "If you don't accept Jesus into your heart, you will suffer hell and damnation".
In this small group, I think I am a minority of one in being put off by Alpha, for the others in the group seem to like it and take away something good from it. I come away from the sessions feeling rebellious and guilty, and in the end, quite grumpy. I feel grumpy today writing about it. That's not good.
Is my bad attitude the problem? Was I closed off to finding anything positive in Alpha from the beginning? I honestly don't have the answers, but I'm wondering if I should attend the final session next week. Maybe I am disruptive to the rest of the group who like the series. I made the committment, but I don't look forward with any pleasure to the nest session, except for Evensong and the soup and sandwiches.
No Grandmère, your bad attitude is not the problem. Clearly, the problem is that you are in rebellion against God. This rebellion reveals itself during the course of spiritual discussions as the Spirit convicts you of the sin to which you so tightly hold. Have you only given part of your life to Jesus? Are you keeping him out of rooms in your heart? Rooms that you reserve for yourself while denying Christ's desire to not only be your saviour, but Lord of your life?
ReplyDeleteHeh, heh, heh -- Told you I was fluent in "Evangelical".
I've not "done" Alpha, but your description sounds pretty similar to my background -- Evangelical, but not fundamentalist.
Remember, that in Evangelical Land, though they would not say it in these words, salvation is predicated on correct belief. Depending on the particular faith group, that belief can be narrow (i.e., Jesus) or wide ("You don't believe in 'eternal security'?"). So, greaet effort is placed on correct teaching and belief. Even if the foucs is narrow (i.e., Jesus), if it's not THE correct belief about Jesus, you're on the wrong side of the "Rapture Line" (That's mine and if MadPriest's uses it! Nah, he can use it.). We all know what that would mean regarding Eileen.
Also, most Evangelicals believe that salvation is only certain when one can pinpoint a certain time when one gave one's heart to Jesus (Being a sensitive boy, I got that job WAY back in preschool at Nazarene camp meeting.)
One more meeting? You can do it if not for nothing more than soup and evensong. Being a post-evangelical, creedal fundamentalist myself, you can imagine how many times I nod my head and smile as I encounter Episcopalians with a "looser" view of the creeds. I truly give it little thought. It's all good! I find it fascinating to see where others are on their faith journey.
I don't think you have a bad attitude, and don't listen to KJ!!! hahaha
ReplyDeleteThe problem is, they use Alpha as a Bible study for Christians who are sure in their faith, when its designed to be an introduction for people who might be coming into their faith. It is a bit on the Evangelical side, but Nicky Gumbel really is gentle, as you said.He's not fundagelical or hardline.
You need to be in EFM. It's a great four-year program, IMO.
KJ, thanks for the many insights into evangelical land. You really have the skinny.
ReplyDeleteI'm quite sure there are dark corners of my heart which have not been given over completely to Jesus, but that's his work. I want him to be Lord of my life. I pray that all that I do is for his glory. I have not arrived at that point yet, but I am a pilgrim, a traveller; I'm on the way, but not yet arrived.
Someone mentioned those who were in church for less tha perfect motives, some of them not giving much though to their reasons for being there, maybe weak in their faith. I said, "Well, they're there. God can meet them where they are, can't he."
Pat, I do keep in mind that Alpha helped bring you to faith. That's one reason I hang in.
Before last night, no one said much in the discussion periods, so I did not know how the rest of them felt, except for the rector's wife, who did speak out.
Hey, Mimi, if you keep talking, maybe some of them will come up with questions of their own someday! Hang in there and enjoy the evensong and food.
ReplyDeleteI find that most Episcopalians are "mystics" in the faith -- Understanding that there is a mysterious work of the Spirit in the life of the believer. This has been a good fit for me, as it is the way I've always believed.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in Evangelical Land, there is much more emphasis on "working your faith". Now, this isn't all bad (e.g., know the Bible, engage in spiritual disciplines), but more often than not, these efforts seem to overshadow God breathed spirituality and lead to the dreaded literalism and deafness toward the continued communications of God.
ShareCropper, I do enjoy Evensong and the food, although the delicious home-made chili served last night gave me a touch of heartburn.
ReplyDeleteKJ, I am definitely of the mystical persuasion, so the evangelical stuff seems rather alien. They speak literally, and I take them literally, which leads to misunderstanding, or rather to not understanding at all on my part. Whaaat?
I think that I remember a conversation where a lot of us said this sort of thing....
ReplyDeleteI don't know how you can sit through that crap. When I saw some of the videos I wasn't with any true believers and I was still mad and a little sick. I couldn't believe that these were Anglicans who were sitting there nodding like Baptists and evangelicals. It was like watching the fifth column sneak up and blow up a damn and flood a city - it seemed so wrong.
I would probably anger everyone in the room with my questions and arguments. be strong.
KJ - I don't think anyone else realized that you were doing a perfect imitation of evangelical speak as sarcasm in that first comment.
Dennis, I wish you could be there with me. The two of us would totally freak 'em out. And, at least, I would not be a minority of one.
ReplyDeleteAh, well, only one more.
Dennis,
ReplyDeleteSarcastic? Moi?
Remember, MadPriest has made it clear that "we" do not stoop to sarcasm. We engage in witty satire. "They" do sarcasm.
Mimi,
ReplyDeleteI started to comment a few hours ago and I was saying by all means go next week. Your being put off by Alpha is ok and your grumpiness is ok. Now I wonder if the grumpiness today may be linked to the chili caused heartburn.
As kj implied in his first comment, for many evangelicals the main issue is salvation. (That's based in part, to my mind, on an overliteral emphasis on the word "beleive" in John 3:16) There are lots of us, and I think you are one, for whom the important thing is "becoming the righteousness of God." (I wrote a little about this in a piece I posted Thursday morning.)
Lest I get too serious here, I'll stop.
Lest I get too serious here, I'll stop.
ReplyDeleteAllen, you are always welcome to get serious here.
Actually, I was grumpy before I ate the chili. It's Alpha! It's Alpha!
Actually I surprise myself by the degree that I'm put off by it.
The problem for me is the me and Jesus type of faith. Personal salvation is all there is for the Gumble crowd. Most of the Bible is not written in the "you" singular but the "you" plural. (read your French Bible Mimi). Jesus challenges the principalities and powers that keep people from becoming the communities of the kindom of God. Salvation comes from the word that means "health" as in salve. It it not about the realms of heaven except as we make heaven on earth, ala The Lord's Prayer -"thy kindom come thy will be done, on EARTH, as in heaven."
ReplyDeleteOh sorry for ranting --- can you tell I would not be happing in Alpha? Yes - take EfM. If there is no group nearby - you can take it online.
ReplyDeleteI actually do not think I could stand to sit through that either, although it sounds a lot nicer than those 'Revivals' they had in the Methodist Church in small towns in the South when I was a kid. Those preachers literally scared the hell out of a lot of teenagers...not a good thing, I think.
ReplyDeleteAnd KJ " I find it fascinating to see where others are on their faith journey."
I am so fecking tired of the whole 'journey' thing. I am on so many of them, you know?
My faith journey
My weight loss journey
My cancer journey
My marriage journey
My parenthood journey
Ick! But you know, most of the people who use this word in Berkeley are not religious people...they are 'spiritual' people who would gag if anyone even tried to point out the futility of their attempts to be spiritual without believing in God.
Oh, well, I had something else to say, but my Chemo Brain Journey got in the way of my Memory Journey...
Love you Mimi...hang in there. Go to the last meeting. Maybe the food will be easier on your delicate stomach...God's reward for sticking in there.
But just in case you just can't make yourself go, if anyone asks you later why you weren't there, you could just say you had gotten sick. You wouldn't have to say what made you sick, would you? ;-)
Mimi,
ReplyDeleteGo for the evensong because it does the soul good. The food is just a bonus.
Sorry, the Evangelical stuff just creeps me out.
BJ
“Salvation comes from the word that means "health" as in salve. It is not about the realms of heaven…”
ReplyDelete“… for many evangelicals the main issue is salvation. (That's based in part, to my mind, on an overliteral emphasis on the word "believe" in John 3:16)”
Actually the sotäría, the salvation propagated in Scholastic christianity (Rome, Calvinism) is a heathen concept; the mystical experience/salvation elevation to the 7th heaven of Gnostics and the Indo European Philosophers of Alexandria.
Whereas the Bible speaks of Lechaim; Life, in the already but not yet of the Kingdom of God. Of coming to healing, to whole lives in communion with God and with God’s very good Creation.
Not the same salvation, methinks.
Having been brought up in a Calvinist/Pietist city, my experiences are the same as yours, although of course Alpha wasn’t invented. Our (my twin sister and me) confirmation priest was also the Pastor to the Herrnhuters, the Bohemian brothers, an early form of Pietism.
What chocks me about Alpha is the copyright. It is true that modern Bibles are copyrighted, but the Word of God is not a book but a Person; Christ Jesus.
And the Word of God is not copyrighted, its for Free.
Come to think of it, in French the Word of God is not merely a noun as in most languages, but also a verb; active, as Hebrew is an active mode language.
ReplyDeleteFroggies distinguish between the Good Book; la Parole de Dieu, and Le Verbe...
You know, I am convinced that for Evanglicals, talking about "Jesus and me" is just an excuse to talk about "me and Jesus."
ReplyDeleteAt the bottom of this particular religious strain is a narcicism that I am quite sure makes Jesus weep.
Allen, you are always welcome to get serious here.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Mimi. I meant long-windedly serious. But in any case I feel moved to respond to Göran.
Actually the sotäría, the salvation propagated in Scholastic christianity (Rome, Calvinism) is a heathen concept; the mystical experience/salvation elevation to the 7th heaven of Gnostics and the Indo European Philosophers of Alexandria.
The American Evangelicals that I am speaking of wouldn't know anything about that. I was stating, not very precisely, an idea that I just found very well expressed by Deirdre Good in Jesus' Family Values: "they usually locate scriptural authority in the specific words of an English translation (such as the King James Version) read out of context ansd with minimal reference to the historical context or the linguistic world of the source." She goes on to say, "Such a reading of scripture, by definintion, assumes permanence of meaning and a fixed context which admits of little interpretation. By this means order and unity are imposed upon scripture, and when that is not possible, certain texts -- such as those favoring the the submission of women -- are privileged while others, equally authoritative, are suppressed."
While I was writing this, Elizabeth said At the bottom of this particular religious strain is a narcicism that I am quite sure makes Jesus weep.
I used to think that and I'm sure it's true that the appeal of some strains of Evangelicalism is enhanced by the narcissism of contemporary American culture. But now I hesitate to tar all Evangelicals with that brush.
Whereas the Bible speaks of It it not about the realms of heaven except as we make heaven on earth, ala The Lord's Prayer -"thy kindom come thy will be done, on EARTH, as in heaven."
ReplyDeleteAnn, yes!
Lechaim; Life, in the already but not yet of the Kingdom of God. Of coming to healing, to whole lives in communion with God and with God’s very good Creation.
Goran, yes!
But just in case you just can't make yourself go, if anyone asks you later why you weren't there, you could just say you had gotten sick. You wouldn't have to say what made you sick, would you?
Susan, you're right. Maybe is wasn't the chili; maybe it was the Alpha.
At the bottom of this particular religious strain is a narcicism that I am quite sure makes Jesus weep.
Elizabeth, yes!
Allen, Ms Good' words on the Scriptures resonate. If every meaning is fixed forever, where's the space for the Holy Spirit to teach as Jesus tells us in John 14:26:
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.
Nicky Gumble is speaking a different language. That's why I'm off-balance and put off by the course.
The slick production style is a major distraction for me, too. I focus on the camera when I should be listening, so it seems they got that wrong.
All of you have made me feel much better. Being alone in a group of 10 or 11, disliking what the others like, made me wonder about myself.
And dammit it's an Episcopal Church! A previous rector, who was much more conservative than our present rector - he didn't believe women priests had valid orders - would not, I believe, have given us this drivel.
Yes, what 'Lisbeth said.
ReplyDeleteSusan S., I can't speak to other people's use of the word "journey"; I use it only in matters of faith. It has been my observation that growth in faith is not a switched on/off event, but is much more "journey-like" as ME and Jesus becomes more and more about God and others.
Believers of all stripes ultimately have the same thing to learn, and when one's faith is Me and Jesus, the more one seems to worry about the faith of others. In my own experience, the more my faith became God and others, the less I worried about where others were in their faith since it is the Spirit who guides that, not me.
So for me, that was very much like a journey, a trip (Not in the Berkely sense!) that is ongoing. I apologize if use of the word offends, and I'm sure there are other words that would be appropriate, but it's the best word I have.
KJ, I'm on a journey or pilgrimage, too. I'm not fixed. I don't know how to say what I mean without talking in clichés, but I am a work in progress, attempting to live the Gospel as best I can with God's help.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct when you say that when it's about God and others, rather than God and me, then there's much less focus on whether the faith of the others is lined up just right.
Isn't it a shame we put Jesus Christ in such a small box? Luckily, we aren't able to contain him there! Savior/Healer/Logos/Advocate ...
ReplyDeleteI see kj with his own fundagelical church ... he'll be one of those preachers who struts and storms
across the stage, er, altar, and when he says "God," it will be a two-syllable word.
Amen! Hallelujah!
'Course, I'll have my own, just down the street.
grin
Pat,
ReplyDeleteOf course, though discovering I have Episcopalian DNA, I'm sure that there is a remnant of Nazarene there somewhere. However, it seems to be a very recessive gene. ;-)
Growing up, I was always so uncomfortable with the type of services you describe. That did cause me a fair amount of guilt since I did not think that I should be feeling discomfort regarding the proceedings. Fortunately, I played the piano and organ, so most of the time I could shut down my thoughts as I provided the necessary musical accompaniment for the proceedings. Oy!
Evangelicals do, I think, too much emphasize the notion of salvation. But it can be too much de-emphasized as well.
ReplyDeleteThe very name of Jesus, as St. Matthew takes pains to point out, means "Yah saves" (only reaching the strange "Jesus" after a torturous route from Hebrew through Aramaic, Greek, and Latin to English). Jesus, too, offers life, though it is more often the Holy Spirit, in the imagry of "breath," that is identified as "to zoopoion," the giver of life.
Salvation, of course, standing alone, means little. What is one to be saved from? Read literally, "salvation" in the Psalms is from human enemies. Matthew says that Jesus will save his people from their sins, bringing to mind Isaiah's suffering servant. Paul puts salvation in a more cosmic context, salvation from the alienating powers of this world.
So I think "salvation" has to be understood in all those contexts.
kj, sorry to rant at you, but living here in the land of the 'spiritual,' it just sometimes is too much to hear it used for each thing in my life, as if it were all separate little things that don't really have anything to do with the others, that's all.
ReplyDelete'Lifestyle' is another one that sets my teeth on edge! Hell, I don't live a lifestyle, I live a life!
Oh, and while I'm at it...how about that word 'Agenda'? As far as I know it should only be applied to board meetings.
Thanks again for ranting space, Mimi!
Growing up, I was always so uncomfortable with the type of services you describe. That did cause me a fair amount of guilt since I did not think that I should be feeling discomfort regarding the proceedings.
ReplyDeleteKJ, my friend, that's exactly how I feel at Alpha. Unfortunately, I can't start making music. OTOH, I suppose I could suddenly start up singing a hymn. How do you think that would go?
Susan, I hear ya. Thanks to you and Elizabeth K., lifestyle is gone from my vocabulary. I'll think about "agenda" and probably use it less. I'm afraid "spiritual" stays in for now, although it is often misused. Rant away any time, my dear.
Rick, the learned one, I saved you for last, because I'll have to think about your comment. Lots of jots and tittles to take in there.
Grace, I don't like Alpha. I believe that by now my rector has a bit of a clue that I don't like it.
ReplyDeleteIf he asks for feedback once the course is over, I will give him my honest opinion.
If Nicky Gumbel's way is the only way to be a christian, I will never be a Christian. Mind you, I am not saying that he and his followers are not Christians. They are free to go their way, but it's not my way.
I don't like Alpha. Maybe it's because I'm bad, but, for whatever reason, I have a rather serious aversion to it.
Mimi - Do EfM online with me next year. My group might have room for someone new - and you'd like EfM - it's much more personal, and, educational, and mind expanding.
ReplyDeleteMy rector is trying to get my God-jealous husband and I to go to Alpha together. Everytime she suggests it, I have to try hard not to laugh, and be polite. She seems to like the program (we run it 2xs a year, and sometimes on a weeknight AND a Saturday morning), and thinks it might help my, erm, situation. Who knows, it might!?
I don't know about E., but it I don't think it's for me!
Mimi - Do EfM online with me next year.
ReplyDeleteEileen, I'll give it serious thought.
Perhaps Alpha would work for your husband, if he's not knowledgeable about Christianity. It's quite basic.
Oh, EFM on line? How does that work, Eileen? Are there videos to watch like at Alpha?
ReplyDeleteEileen, "my God-jealous husband"... is your husband jealous of the time you spend with God? Is that what you mean?
As Mimi describes Alpha, it sure wouldn't seem to be a course for someone who wasn't "seeking" as it would seem a bit like force-feeding. However, it would seem to answer questions for those new to the faith who actually wanted the information.
ReplyDeleteSusan S, I understand where you're coming from. Many people do tend to compartmentalise things to death.
I'm way to simple (And Grandmè would say too smart, I'm sure.) for that. My "compartments" must be very large. For example, when it comes to "lifestyle", I find that there is Gospel lifestyle and not.
Grace, my dear, you and your husband surely must have spirited discussions, more so than these on the intertubes. You'll have to give us a play by play one day, you know, the script for one of your discussions. I'd love to hear an example.
ReplyDeleteSusan - Yes...dh is jealous of my God time. Actually, I think it might even be deeper than this. He can see no benefit of "church" - he sees churches as sanctimonious, money-grubbing institutions, put on earth to brain-wash good people.
ReplyDeleteHe believes in God. But not in church. What his opinions are about the Trinity, etc. I have no idea.
Grace & Mimi - My husband is a practical soul, who hates book learning. If he can't touch it or feel it, he can't be bothered with it, and he can't figure out why anyone else would want to either. If he ever agrees to go to Alpha with me, I'll fall over (EfM would be pure torture for him).
Alpha might help E., IF I could ever get him to go. At this point, it looks bleak.
How EfM online works:
ReplyDeleteBasically, you sign up for the course through Sewanee. When a cohort of students is collected, Sewanee assigns a mentor. Sewanee collects tuition and such, and sends out your EfM books (binders really - one with lessons, and one for Theological Reflection). Then your mentor assigns a "meeting" day. You meet on that day, at the prescribed hour, for 1 1/2 hrs. You have access to a discussion board, etc. (Mimi, to get a taste, and you too Susan, join Ann+'s Theology Pub - it uses Blackboard, and gives you the general idea on how that format works.) Your group discusses readings, reflections, and does Theological reflection to try to help tease our your own personal theology and how you will use it in your ministry (remembering we are all called to ministry). You meet weekly for 9 months.
I enjoy it. I'm meeting people from all over the country, and learning very interesting things - some are progressive, some moderate, some more conservative. Lots of different responses, lots to learn.
Grace, Ya know I love you, but notice how little peace is present in the efforts you describe. I am agreed that salvation is through Christ, but if I thought I knew how that "played out' for all, well, I'd be God. Because I know salvation to be through Christ and not my efforts, I can have rest.
ReplyDeleteThree years ago, my Uncle Charles, who lived in Carson City, Nevada died. He left no will and he was estranged from his two surviving sons, so my mom, his only sibling, and I flew from Seattle to take care of his affairs. (He left no will and financial things were not in order, but that's the topic for another thread.).
Charles, at the ripe old age of 78, had a girlfriend, "V". She and my uncle attended a local church which I guess might be called "fundagelical", to swipe a term from Pat (It was Wesleyan in its heritage, but definitely not UMC, which they would have seen as "liberal".).
The pastor was gleeful at the thought of the V's "unsaved" adult children of being present at the funeral. He called them "pagans" (I certainly did not reveal my sexual orientation to the man.) and was excited about the opportunity to "share the Gospel" and looked forward to when "Uncle Wally" sang whatever Gospel song he was going to sing.
Yet, when the time came when I and the other "kids" needed physical and organizational assistance in all that needed to be accomplished in resolution affairs and property, there was nary a congregant in sight. All words -- "correct" doctrine and no service -- no love.
Bleh! When Sunday came and Mom and I had the choice of joining the congregation for church or hanging out with V's kids, helping one of them with some labor, I told Mom I'd just as soon spend the day working with the "pagans" than sitting in the pews with the "saints". My mom, and evangelical by birth, couldn't have agreed more.
V's kids were fascinated by my story and puzzled how I could identify myself as gay AND Christian, and curious why I'd have any interest in being Christian. I didn't have to attempt to make that happen. I didn't have to set a "trap" and hope someone got caught. I just was who I was and lived out my faith in a way that seemed very practical, necessary and authentic.
(Eileen, I trust you don't mind if I drag you and your husband back into this discussion. However, you probaly should first put on a blouse. Grandmère is trying to run a reputable blog here.) While I'm sure many have found Alpha, and other similar programs, to be a way of learning of the Christian faith, I would be embarrassed to think this was the only way or most important way I could help another get a glimpse of Christ. Eileen is the face of Christ to her family, not Alpha, not a program. My evangelical background has permanently, I hope, disabused me of ways of "sneaking" people into the Kingdom. All this effort for slick ways to present the Gospel -- anything but each of us being Christ to those around us.
I guess what I'm saying is, "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary."
Best be honest right now. Ann and Eileen, my considered opinion is that I probably will not do EfM online. I am not a joiner of much of anything, and right now, my life is pretty challenging. I don't think I can handle something else that would require time and dedication at this point.
ReplyDeleteI am honored that you asked me, and perhaps at another time I would consider it.
KJ, as you shared your Christianity with your relatives is the way I'm comfortable sharing my faith. I subscribe wholeheartedly to those words attributed to St. Francis of Assisi, "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary."
All of you should keep in mind that I was always somewhat of a loner and an odd duck.
KJ - Thanks. I hadn't really thought of myself as the "face of Christ" in my family, but, I guess, since I'm the only adult trying to work at being Christian, I guess that is true.
ReplyDeleteI'm not the only mom who attends church on her own.
Mimi - I understand. I never used to be much of a joiner either. But I am enjoying EfM alot, and because of the way you discuss things online, I think, if and when you feel ready, you might enjoy it and be a good fit for it too. (You "get" online communication!)
I'm so embarassed! I said all that without putting on my shirt...even after KJ reminded me too!
ReplyDeleteSorry!
Eileen, Eileen, you should be embarrassed. I try to run a respectable place here.
ReplyDeleteMimi - my voice for Mimi (inside my head) just turned into a Nice Jewish Mama from Brooklyn...
ReplyDeleteEileen...Eileen...Oy! You shud be embaaraased...
Mimi - my voice for Mimi (inside my head) just turned into a Nice Jewish Mama from Brooklyn...
ReplyDeleteEileen...Eileen...Oy! You shud be embaaraased...
Eileen,
ReplyDeleteThe tough thing for me is seeing Jesus in others. I think I need to look harder, or maybe less.
The tough thing for me is seeing Jesus in others. I think I need to look harder, or maybe less.
ReplyDeleteKJ, maybe you just need new glasses, rose-colored ones. ;o)
Agreed, KJ.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to see him in the face of your spouse when you are arguing or in the face of your kids when they are working your last nerve...But, he's there.
I prayed with Mother Jaclyn this morning for my husband - I prayed for him to accept the role of the Lord in our lives.
Want to know something weird? I prayed that at the alter rail.
One of my fellow parishoners, at fellowship, said to me "Hey - tell your husband we miss seeing him!" She saw me sitting alone in the pew and felt bad for me. I told her I don't mind sitting alone - I go to church for me, and it's nice to be "alone" for a bit on Sunday, with my own thoughts.
She proceeded to have a very nurturing, supportive talk with me about gentle ways I might get my husband involved. Some things I had been thinking of (such as perhaps helping with the grounds committee), and if was affirming, and not busy-body-ish.
God was answering my prayer, before I even left the church grounds.
Eileen, my husband is not a church-goer either, except for Christmas and Easter, and perhaps one other time in a year.
ReplyDeleteHe does attend some of the social gatherings with me, so the folks in my church know him. He has no objection to my participation in church activities, but does not want to hear requests from me to attend church, therefore, I let him be.
He is, on the whole, a better person than I am, lack of church attendance notwithstanding.
Mimi - I will never force Evan to go to church. It would never be worth the price.
ReplyDeleteI only pray he will stop feeling so hostile about MY going to church. That is my wish.
We could both use work. I'd say in even amounts, on different things. ;-)
I only pray he will stop feeling so hostile about MY going to church. That is my wish.
ReplyDeleteThat is my prayer for your husband, too, Eileen.
Notes from an EFM dropout...
ReplyDelete...and this makes me more or less heretical in the TEC...
I suggest that before you sign up for EFM that you beg, borrow or steal a copy of the first year materials and a syllabus/timeline so you can get an idea of the preparation and reading required on a weekly basis. You have noted elsewhere that there are other demands on your time. Sewanee's idea of updating the materials was to add more and not bother to edit. I found it frustrating to get through all the materials and be fully prepared every week. I finally gave up when I realized that I was in danger of carrying the frustration and exhaustion (I was nearly the freeway accident of record one Wednesday morning) into the group meetings. It was true that the relationships that you form in the group are truly tremendous and the understanding of faith and (personal?) theology work is beyond description.
When I quit, I told the mentor that I would try it again after I retired. Right now this is only a danger in the unlikely event that I win the lottery.
BJ
BJ, just now, I could not take that on that much extra work. There is no way. From all I've heard, the material and the relationships formed are great. Maybe one day.
ReplyDeleteI hope you win the lottery so that you can retire in luxury.
Grandmere,
ReplyDeleteThanks. I often fantasize about having the luxury of time to read, think and live more consciously with the opportunity to do some more of the work that is out there that needs to be done. In the meantime I am blessed to have a profession and clients that I enjoy. I am thankful that I'm able to do a lot of what I call '15 minute ministries' that hopefully can grow.
BJ
Mimi - I don't find EfM to be that odeious. It's not that bad. I can keep up, and I work full-time, have two kids, and juggle a bazillion things.
ReplyDeleteIt's manageable, IF one desires it to be manageable. That's a big IF.
As with all things, it's not for everybody.
I read fairly quicky, and, if you javascript:void(0)
Publish Your Commenthave that gift, I think it's fine.
Anyway, that's my final .2 on this topic! LOL