Saturday, January 26, 2008

Catholic School Students Discplined

From the Daily Comet:

When her daughter was suspended from E.D. White Catholic High School, it was for actions taken in a realm seemingly beyond the reach of administrators.

Along with more than 20 seniors, Deneen Spinella’s daughter was suspended from the school for joining an online discussion group where administrators say students posted profane comments and attempted to share coursework answers.

According to a letter sent to one parent, school officials said students violated a policy outlined in the campus code of conduct that prohibits them from engaging in online activity -- on or off campus -- that could harm the school’s image.


Hmmm, "...harm the school's image."

Though administrators suspended her daughter for attempting to cheat, Spinella said, they misinterpreted her intentions. She said her daughter created the group -- titled "Screw Apologetics and yo wonky ass sources" -- in hopes of gathering information for teachers who couldn’t answer questions posed to students.

"She was trying to collect information, put it on a CD and hand it over. The teacher would use it because they didn’t have a guide," she said. "Because she took it upon herself to put the school first, they persecuted her for it."


I found myself smiling as I read the story, but I feel bad for Deneen Spinella's daughter, because she was stripped of "her academic titles, including a high-ranking position in the Key Club and her membership in the National Honor Society". I only know what I read in the newspaper, but what the students did does not seem that bad to me.

Though administrators suspended her daughter for attempting to cheat, Spinella said, they misinterpreted her intentions. She said her daughter created the group -- titled "Screw Apologetics and yo wonky ass sources" -- in hopes of gathering information for teachers who couldn’t answer questions posed to students.

The group was removed from the Facebook website for a brief period, but it is now back up. I wasn't able to gain access to it.

Near the top of the page, a description for the group reads "MAYBE I DON’T WANT TO DEFEND THE CATHOLIC FAITH!?" A photo of local Catholic Bishop Sam Jacobs appears in the top right corner.

The group also includes this statement, with no mention of an author: "(This site) was not a way to cheat and if the school administrators would have taken a chance to look at this page then they would no (sic) that no cheating actually occurred on this page."


I don't know the motivation of the student organizer nor the motivation of the students who participated, but it doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. Maybe I'm missing something.

I know that rules are rules, and the parents signed statements, etc., etc., etc., but the teen years are a time of questioning, a time for the young people to find their way. What message do the suspensions send to the students about exploring their faith and addressing their doubts, instead of squelching them? A very wrong message, I'd say. Maybe some of the students don't want to defend the Catholic faith as it's being presented to them. Maybe that's OK.

I attended Roman Catholic schools for 17 years of my life. It was a long time ago, but it seems not much has changed. My only "C" grade in college was in a course called "Christian Marriage". I am convinced that the reason I made that "C" was because I argued with the priest who taught the class about Matthew 19:9, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery." I said that it seemed to me that Jesus was saying that one was permitted to divorce one's spouse and marry another if the spouse was unfaithful. He said that was not the meaning of the statement. I persisted in my questioning. I argued with him. I wouldn't let it go, with the end result that I made my "C" in the course.

Once, during a job interview, the interviewer said of my college transcript, "All "A's" and "B's". No wait; here's a "C". Let's see what subject the "C' is in. Oh! 'Christian Marriage'." He and I both laughed. And I've only been married for 46 years.

There is questioning, and there is QUESTIONING! QUESTIONING gets you in trouble. Is it possible that the teachers were truly not equipped to deal with the questions of the students? I believe it is. In the courses which prepared them to teach religion classes, perhaps the future teachers were not encouraged to explore their own doubts and questions.

In my humble opinion, the school authorities were harsh in their response. Do the school authorities have a clue about offline conversations among high school students?

"Screw Apologetics and yo wonky ass sources". That's pretty funny.

UPDATE: I have been told that the student who was suspended for nine days would have lost a full scholarship to a private university of good reputation, if she had stayed to serve her suspension at E. D. White.

UPDATE 2: Further discussion on this matter may be found at the website of the Daily Comet Forum.

26 comments:

  1. If the "parents" continue to dispute Administration's discplinary action, Adminstration and the advisory board will ask these children to leave school. The damage is done, the consequences have been paid. The BIG lesson to be learned is that a private school does not take into consideration your constitutional or civil rights. Private schools have the right to disenroll students that do not conform to the mission of their school. The mission of the school includes Parental Support of any and all action imposed by the school's administration. Research "student's rights in a private school". Everything you will find under this topic states that student's as well as parent's have no rights in a private school. Once a parent signs the "contract", they have signed their rights away.

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  2. Anonymous, I wish you'd make up a name and sign your posts, just so various "Anonymous" commenters may be distinguished one from the other.

    You're right. Private schools can determine who attends their schools - or not. I'm not suggesting what's legal and what's not legal about the actions of the school administration. I'm wondering about the wisdom of what they've done.

    Why did you place "parents" in quotation marks?

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  3. People working with young folk need to have a sense of proportion. I was a high school teacher for over 40 years. Not long after the start of my career, the final year students put on a skit before the school which they thought was funny but was very hurtful to me. The Principal sent them to apologise (good) then he wanted to ban them from their final farewell social (bad and I am glad I protested on their behalf and they attended).

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  4. Brian, good for you. That was a wise decision.

    As a teenager, I was somewhat feisty and even sassy, at times, so I suppose I see myself in these young people. I did things that were hurtful, too, one that I'm ashamed of to this day. But adolescence is a time of learning, often by making mistakes, and this punishment was out of proportion. Why not assign some sort of community service?

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  5. "The damage is done, and the consequences have been made." This could not be further from the truth. The consequences for 21 students for clicking on a button and not posting a comment, is ruining them academically for the rest of their lives. This is affecting families financially whose children no longer qualify for TOPS, and other scholarships.

    Vandebilt's student's who actually posted comments were allowed to make up their tests for 100% of the grade, and the suspension will not appear on their transcript.

    It appears that many people do not understand the facts of what happened, and are assuming that what they have heard from the administration is the truth.

    1. This was a private group that was accessed by invitation only.

    2. The school has acknowledged that no cheating took place, but that the suspensions will remain as they are because the website hurt the image of the school.

    3. No one said anything on the site about harming, killing, or blowing up the Bishop. About 20 out of the 24 students simply clicked on the invitation to view the site, and did not post a comment. One click of a button and you are ruined academically is extremely harsh.

    4. The administration gave the impression to the faculty and board members that ALL students posted comments threatening the Bishop, etc. This is absolutely NOT true. In fact, it is a lie.

    It's no wonder parents are outraged and want this current administration to resign.

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  6. Bill, welcome. Thank you so much for this comment. I had the sense that the administration made a mountain out of a molehill. For what it's worth, I believe the punishments were far too draconian.

    What if, instead of focusing on the "image" of the school, the administration had considered the essence of a Christian school? What about the Gospel teaching of love and forgiveness? What message will the impressionable adolescents carry away from this situation? What about their families and friends?

    I have no dog in this fight. No one close to me attends E. D. White, but I have young grandchildren coming up, who may attend. I'm wondering now if that's entirely a good thing. It won't be my decision, but I can speak my piece.

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  7. Anonymous, are you the same anonymous as the previous anonymous? That's why I ask folks to make up a name, to save confusion. Please do, if you post again.

    I have no idea what your message is about.

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  8. I support the Administration; I do wish the group of students involved will be taken, or take it upon themselves to go before Bishop Sam Jacobs-to air their opinions, seek his, and be forgiven for their negativity. These students deserve his forgiveness.

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  9. Children of God, thanks for your comment. The more I hear about this matter, the less I support Bp. Jacobs' imposition of the course on the seniors. It seems to be having a negative effect on at least some of the students, as far as confirming them in their faith. It seems, rather, to be pushing them away.

    You say that you support the administration. Does that mean you support the draconian punishment, too? When you say that the students deserve the bishop's forgiveness, do you mean that he should reverse the punishment, which will so severely affect the lives of the students involved?

    For what it's worth, my advice to the bishop would be to junk the course and change the punishment to fit the "crime". Of course, I'm sure that Bp. Jacobs cares nothing about my advice.

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  10. Grandmere-You express anger and pain in your words. With all due respect to you; please consider expressing your feelings to the Bishop, also. Believe me, he does take into consideration the comments of those concerned about the religious future of our children. God be with you and all the students and parents involved.

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  11. Children of God, you did not answer my questions.

    I am not even a Catholic. Why would Bp. Jacobs listen to me? I have no personal involvement in this matter at all. I am sad for the students involved, that their lives will be so seriously affected by what they've done, which - according to what I know - does not seem serious at all. The students seem bright and funny to me.

    Trust me, if I thought talking to Bp. Jacobs would help their case, I would do it.

    God's blessings.

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  12. Grandmere: You do not have to be a Catholic to express your feelings to Bishop Sam Jacobs. A personal visit, letter or phone call WILL help! Your ACTIONS will speak louder than your words you post. He will acknowledge your concern for the students. Please do it for the children. God Bless!

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  13. Children of God, I'll think about it, although, deep down, I don't think it will do a bit of good.

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  14. Grandmere: Thank you for your consideration. God Bless!

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  15. well to start off i am not here to fight or anything of that matter i am here to state my OPINION,(as many of the students involved in this situation were trying to do) although maybe i shouldn't because edwhite says i am not allowed to have one. but anyways, when i first found out about all this business about kids getting in trouble for a facebook group..some being my friends..i was so ridiculously mad that you have no clue..with all the ridiculous things edwhite has come up with, i thought to myself..this has got to be one of thee most ridiculous. then when i got more word of what had happened and upon further review of reading the paper and from word of students involved..i found out that
    -the bishop was not offended in anyway
    -the administration are liars
    -its not gonna change the life of anyone that a girl made a group titled "screw apolegetics and your wonky ass sources"
    so here are my points:
    point 1 - the title of the group did not say screw edwhite, screw God, or screw anything religious..it was saying screw this project that i have to do and its stupid sources..so back off the title.
    point 2 - when i read a response in the paper about a guy agreeing with administration one of his lines were something to the effect of, 'although you can say what you want outside of school you should be prepared for consequences' --- this is totally wrong because as far as i know when you are born you are given freedom of speech and i should not have to be prepared for consequences of what i say if one of my rights is to say what i want because i can
    point 3 - since when can a school take away your rights, and i am pretty sure that if all parents were aware that their rights as parents were being taken away as they signed a contract most of them would not sign it.
    point 4 - according to me i beleive that all of the administration being so concerned with what we are doing is pretty pathetic:
    like i don't know , find somethin to do with your life...it's almost stalkerish that you want to know what i'm doin with mine.. i know you're a teacher soo go grade papers or something
    point 5 - when they were teenagers i am sure they did something stupid that they weren't supposed to do as well..like really
    well i don't want to make this a novel but in conclusion
    i am just fed up with administrations lies and games..
    get over it
    kids will be kids
    let us be.
    and when we are at school you can step into the role of being in control of us
    but anywhere outside of school
    go AWAY

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  16. EDWgoer123, thanks for your comment.

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  17. My grandparents and parents were Catholic. I was born and raised Catholic. I was married in the Catholic church and though my children go to public school, they are enrolled in Catholic religion classes. I send them so that they may learn about the Catholic faith that I was raised knowing, however, if either of my kids came to me and asked to discontinue their religion classes, I would honor that request, as long as they have a belief in God and Christian values. Why? Because I have become so disgusted with the Catholic church and their hypocritical practices (ie preaching one thing and doing another) over and over again. For years, when Catholic priests were accused of wrongdoing and abuse were they "suspended"? Of course not, they were moved to another church and the problem was ignored. I could go on with a lenghty list of different reasons that have affected me personally, but today I have no desire to step inside Catholic church again. I have friends who are Baptist. I have attended services with them and left with a far greater feeling than I have ever received from the Catholic preachings. This latest incident regarding the students at ED White/Vandebilt has brought my amazement with the Catholic Church to a new level. I have heard it said before and comments have been posted here, that "parents and students have no rights in a private school". I have also heard that when the issue our First Amendment righ of free speech was raised, an representative of the school responded that students give up that right once they enroll. Well, if this class was intended to teach students to be able to defend their Catholic faith, then there needs to be class added for students AND ADMNISTRATORS, to learn about dfending our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS as AMERICANS. I hope the ACLU is listening and following this case and that someone finally takes action against institutions who think they are of a higher power than the rights given to us by our government. Because if schools such as ED White or the Catholic Church is going suggest that THEIR rules supercede our Constitutional rights of their students and their parents, then their religious teachings are skewed. Instead of offering the "teachings" of God, they have mistakenly thought they have become God.

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  18. Anonymous, It seems that you're not the same Anonymous as the other posters. That's why I'd like folks who post comments to make up a name. It's much less confusing.

    My grown son was a Confirmation drop-out. His Confirmation class was total chaos; the students were out of control. What good was a chaotic Confirmation class? He is still a Catholic, but, to this day, he has never been confirmed.

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  19. Pulled my son out of his Catholic School, at Semester--Senior Year. Honor Roll Student, Regent scholar, 30 ACT, etc.Athlete. Compassionate. Volunteer tutor, etc.
    His crime ? "He stood up to an abusive Math Teacher--who harrassed and humiliated a non-conformist Junior in front of the entire class for 10 minutes, because SHE had "Issues" with his long hair. (Other Faculty members protested her ,too. The Math department had lost it's heart & soul to Cancer earlier that year(a Saint of a Lady)--and was now stuck with these two idiots.)

    When facing the "my way or the hi-way" of an incompetent Administration--he said "no"..politely and firmly...and repeatedly. I was proud of him. The hypocrisy and lies spewing forth from the Principal and Superintendent, thereafter were staggering. Due Process violations left and right.!! I witnessed it firsthand (I--12 years Catholic Ed, Altar Boy, Alum, Attorney-Litigator, and someone who used to defend Schools when sued--up thru the 8th Circuit.)

    It was absolutely jaw-dropping.!!

    Fast forward--Youngest son (Quiet,kind, sensitive, Honor Student, etc) was the victim of ongoing harrassment/Bullying recently. It has been going on for some time.
    I just wrote them---that he now has formal permission to fight back (with fists) at his attackers....screw their code of behavior...and their incompetent ways...they have been grossly negligent.
    We changed the rules of the game--and it was not well received. A lot of suddenly upset Bullies/School Administrators.!! I ultimately got the --you signed a "Contract" crap...except I didn't.!! (The blackballing has already started. )

    We will be leaving soon--never to return to Catholic schools. Mass is very questionable, unless a Jesuit conducts/"says" Mass.

    The days of "Do as I say, not as I do" have run off the best and the brightest Catholics. (Wizard of OZ syndrome)

    I say close the schools. Re-open them only when the arbitrary & Capricious Bastards running them have died off---and start clean.

    oh, by the way, I'm Jesuit educated, too!! Didja see what those poor souls of St Ignatius of Loyola , etc have endured form Rome and most currently, it's Rottwieler Pope Ratzinger ??

    I'm all for the Jesuits--they teach reason, method,Logic, and to question authority on Moral, Legal, and Humanistic Grounds---to agree to disagree is the backbone of a civil society--something the "Roman" Catholics forgot along the way.

    While cleaning my desk this pm, I ran across a personal plea from the School Board President (twice removed) to join the Board. It was about the 7th "plea" to be made over 15 years. Pretty Ironic.

    It's really sad and bordering on mandatory "Kool-Aid" consumption / Insanity.

    I'm Done.

    MGPN

    (Midwest gone Public now.)

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  20. MGPN, welcome to this old thread. It seems it's the thread that never dies. The story strikes a nerve.

    It seems the same all over. It's the arrogance, which I fear they are taking too far. I have a granddaughter who will attend a Catholic high school next year, and I have misgivings about it. All her friends will go there, and she would be terribly disappointed if she was sent elsewhere. I have misgivings, but I don't get to decide.

    My older grandson withdrew from his Catholic high school in the middle of his second year, because he is a non-conformist, but, at the same time, a straight-A-student and never had discipline problems, until he was sent back three times to get a proper haircut. He went with the handbook the last two times, and it still wasn't right. He was disciplined, I don't remember how - demerits or something - and he asked his parents to take him out at the end of the semester, and they did. He is in public school, doing well in honors classes, and he is much happier. He graduates next year.

    On the other hand, the Catholic grade schools that those kids attended were good schools and conducted themselves in a fashion consistent with the Gospel. Why can't the high schools do it? I think the authorities are actually afraid of the kids.

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  21. Mdme Mimi:

    Tres Bien. Vous Sante... tres bien.!

    While my French may be rusty (or non-existent), I willingly take my hat off and bow a knee, to a kind and insightful rejoinder.

    I do not know the answer. Your Statement that they may be "Afraid of the kids" ...makes as much sense as any I've heard.

    Personally, I keep getting hung up on the definition of "Disingenuous"--when thinking of or talking to these "Educators".

    However, that is merely a description of a symptom, rather than a Cause.

    Your thought appears to be more "spot-on" as to a Cause of these "Educational Scatomas".

    Merci beaucoup!

    Bob

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  22. Bob, thanks. I dashed off the comment without thinking too much, and I must say that, in truth, I don't understand why the authorities act in the manner that they do, but it seems to me that in their desire for such tight control, there must lie an element of fear.

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  23. Update:

    I will transfer my youngest Son over to the Public Schools starting next Fall. Last Day of Catholic school is Wednesday.
    We can't wait.

    It has been a really long time coming.The Bullying continues.The Denial continues. Upset families are rife. Glad my son could hold on to finish the year--but the last 2 weeks have been tough for him. I gave him permission to physically fight back. The Ethical and Honor Roll Gentle Giant (Son) struck a shocked tormentor/Bully. (Grapes of Wrath, anyone ?)

    Boy, the uproar that followed!!

    Quite a number of Parents are pulling their kids (25% of the entire Freshman class)--still abject denial of any "Problems" at this school. Teacher leaving/"retirement" is at 7 (out of 24) (25% ?)

    Weak School Board, fearful teachers, and an iron-fisted Bishop/Priest run school--in spite of open problems. (Both from bad Policies & Personnel)

    I guess the Catholic Church's Legacy from the "Pedophile Era"... is more repression and Denial--rather than transparency..

    I'm done. I feel a huge relief.

    I feel my Soul can breathe again.

    My son says the same thing. My Oldest Son is feeling a kind of Schadenfreude--albeit, he cares deeply for some of the Teachers/Coaches still there. Oldest certainly didn't need permission to strike back !!

    It is Sad....but I feel a huge relief !

    May you all feel the same with your loved ones.

    I have heard "It's Our School,it's a Private School, and we'll do what we want" ...for the last time.

    As long as there is no "Accountability"...I'll never donate to a Catholic entity ever again--Church or School. I guess George Carlin was correct.

    17 Family members in 2 generations went thru that school. 8 Plus Advanced Degrees (Post BA) -in one family alone (100%)--Sheesh!

    Really Sad..

    Good Luck to all.

    Midwest No More

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  24. MNM, I wish you and your son a good school year next year.

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  25. Thank you, Mimi. Have a wonderful Summer.

    MNM

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