The Most Rev Katharine Jefferts Schori, presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, has given a most revealing interview to the Houston Chronicle in which she says that Anglican churches in Africa have polygamous members and, um, that’s basically OK. I mean, not ideal, but a man can keep his wives if he wants to, though not add to his collection.
....
Well, I suppose her Church was founded by a man with six wives…
Here's the Q&A from the Houston Chronicle:
Q: How does that play in more conservative parts of the world? Do you follow one set of beliefs here, and other cultural values in other parts of the world?
A: That's really the name of the game with Anglicans. One of our primary issues during the Reformation was that worship had to be in a language the people could understand. We take context really seriously, because we take incarnation, the presence of God in the flesh, very seriously. He appears to us in different ways in places. I'll give you a contrasting example. In the 1980s, the Anglican community started to wrestle with the issue of polygamy in Africa. Polygamy is not an issue here, except in very small pockets of Utah and Arizona, and the church has taken a very different position. We said no. In Africa, the church doesn't officially recognize polygamy. They certainly have polygamous members of their churches. In some places, they say the man can't take additional wives once he becomes a Christian, but he isn't forced to divorce the wives he already has. The children generally are recognized as full members if they want to be baptized.
In some instances, there was good reason for permitting married, male converts to Christianity to keep the wives they already had. Had the wives and children been abandoned, many of them would have been viewed as outcasts in their societies, women with no status, left without protection.
Obviously, Thompson doesn't do nuance well. Thompson is Roman Catholic. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Actually, "her Church" was founded by the daughter of a man with six wives.
ReplyDeleteCorrect, Lapin. And Thompson knows better, but he couldn't resist the dig. As though his church always does him proud.
ReplyDeleteWhat a pathetic journalist this is. Instead of "Telegraph" he should write for the "Clanging Cymbal"
ReplyDeleteAnd check Tobias' comment on Episcopal Café - on the Lambeth resolution re: polygamy
ReplyDeleteAnn, I read Tobias' comment just now, but I didn't copy, or I would have given him credit. My post was up first. :-) I like to give credit, where credit is due, but I remembered enough of the resolution to write the words in my post.
ReplyDeleteTobias is correct. Thompson could have Googled and found the resolution in seconds.
I did not think your were plagiarizing- just thought "great minds"
ReplyDeleteObviously, Thompson is not a member of our "great minds" group.
ReplyDeleteNot only is he a Roman Catholic, he is also the most snarky of British Columnists. He's also an ass in my opinion. I like to think that at least Henry didn't have 6 wives all at once. Yes. I know 2 of them were executed, but we all make mistakes. . . except of course for Mr. Tompson.
ReplyDeleteOh no! I misspelled his name! Horrors! I do notice that his first name is spelled the same way as the 'spawn of the devil' character in all the "Omen" movies. Hmmm. . .
ReplyDeleteSusan, the same thing (re his name) occurred to me. His picture does look a little demonic, but who am I to talk...
ReplyDeleteOh dear! I'd spelled Damian's name wrong, which may be the greatest offense I've committed against him in the post. I corrected my mistake.
ReplyDeletesusan and Tobias, if your comments were a kind way of calling my attention to the mistake, I thank you.
Tobias, you don't look a bit demonic, although you once had a photo....
ReplyDeleteI was believing your spelling, Mimi. I was ready to accept it because of my prior feelings toward Mr. Thompson. I still agree that he looks demonic. Or maybe it's just that superior attitude that he exudes from every hair on his head!
ReplyDeleteYes. I know 2 of them were executed, but we all make mistakes
ReplyDeleteSusan, is there something you would like to tell us? ...
susan, Damian strikes a pose in his photo. The question is, what message does he send by his pose? And does he, in fact, send the message he wishes to send?
ReplyDeleteCathy, you would not want to dig around in susan's back yard.
My dinner caught spectacularly on fire while I was typing the above comment. I mean when I went in the kitchen there were flames coming out the oven. Is there a moral in that?...
ReplyDeleteAh, anyway, the Torygraph is a rag, and has only got worse in recent years, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI know what the message is! It's Queen Liz I communicating with me from the afterlife pointing out that she would have had Damian Thompson burned at the stake.
ReplyDeleteIs there a moral in that?...
ReplyDeleteCathy, I'm afraid so. The Omen.
I hope the fire is out.
Cathy, I was referring to Our Lord, when he said something to the effect of "Let him without sin cast the first stone."
ReplyDeleteI'm sure we all have some . . . sins, that is.
Mimi, my back yard is not big enough in which to bury bodies.
Mimi, my back yard is not big enough in which to bury bodies.
ReplyDeleteNot even one?
Oh go on, Susan, tell us. Who have you had bumped off? ... And was the cyanide in the violet creams?
ReplyDeleteYou can use mine, Susan. We could always use more compost.
ReplyDeleteRemember: Friends help you move; real friends help you move bodies.
It was the mutton chops that caught on fire, if anyone is interested. Sheep fat burns very easily, I fear. I should have kept my eye on them.
ReplyDeleteRemember: Friends help you move; real friends help you move bodies.
ReplyDeleteExactly!
I fear. I should have kept my eye on them.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, Cathy!
As to burial, there's always cremation, which is a great space saver. I'm taking advantage of it in my "pre-planning" (which I always just call, "planning.") Maybe we could borrow Cathy's oven?
ReplyDeleteMimi, the missing picture was due to my not having actually logged in...
Re the message sent by Damian Thompson's "pose", Cathy, Fr Orsen Carte opens his post on this topic with the observation "Fanny Thompson is causing mischief on his gay RC blog". Maybe this helps?
ReplyDeleteLapin, I think Cathy was looking for a message from beyond about why her Mutton Chops caught on fire.
ReplyDeleteYour answer fits with Mimi's observation about Mr. Thompson's pose.
I have heard the "Fanny Thompson" reference before. BTW, what is Fr. Carte's blog address? Or does he have a column in a more reputable paper?
Out of respect to Mimi I did not link Fr Carte, Susan, but his blog name is "Anglican Mainstreams". Not that this is "Mainstreams" with a final "s" - omitting it and you will land in a totally different world.
ReplyDeleteYeah, why did my mutton chops catch on fire???
ReplyDeleteI blame Damian Thompson.
I ate them anyway (the chops). They were extremely good. If a bit BBQ-ey.
Maybe we could borrow Cathy's oven?
ReplyDeleteTobias, you would be welcome :-)
Oh yes, Lapin. That guy. Definitely don't link to him.
ReplyDeleteBetter than some I can name, Susan. I post there pretty regularly.
ReplyDeleteCathy, I was going to ask about the mutton chops, if they were edible, but I see you answered before I asked.
ReplyDeleteFor supper tonight, Grandpère brought home sloppy roast beef po-boys with gravy, lettuce, and tomato, which were delish.
One of my comments disappeared. I had to be away from the computer for a while, and I thanked you all for behaving yourselves and not linking to naughty websites on my child-friendly blog while I was gone.
ReplyDeleteSo, is Damian gay, then?
Damian gay? All we know is that some think so and that they get away with saying it, Mimi.
ReplyDeleteDear all
ReplyDeleteSince I live in South Africa, I'll make bold and comment on this.
The person who works for me is the first wife of a man who is married to two wives.
Both women are devout Christians, and both are regular attendees of an AIC (African Independent Church) in our area.
In recent times in South Africa, and despite the behaviour of President Zuma (which is generally regarded as irresponsible, by the way), the practice of polygamy is becoming less common - partially as a result of urbanisation and partially, of course, because it is so expensive.
A man who was a member of a mainline church (Anglican, RC, EO, Baptist, Presbyterian) would be told "you can't marry a second wife here". And only some AICs allow polygamy, and then only reluctantly. As the presiding bishop says (in effect), cultural realities are what they are.
Damien Thompson's remarks are the product of a man who is not as well informed on ecclesiastical matters as he should be, and who would be well advised to worry about the state of his own church rather than problems elsewhere.
Jane Smith (Pretoria, South Africa)
For some reason, the following comment did not appear here. It came through in my email that shows new comments but did not show up on the blog. I thought you all should see the comment.
ReplyDeletesmithj1@unisa.ac.za said:
Dear all
Since I live in South Africa, I'll make bold and comment on this.
The person who works for me is the first wife of a man who is married to two wives.
Both women are devout Christians, and both are regular attendees of an AIC (African Independent Church) in our area.
In recent times in South Africa, and despite the behaviour of President Zuma (which is generally regarded as irresponsible, by the way), the practice of polygamy is becoming less common - partially as a result of urbanisation and partially, of course, because it is so expensive.
A man who was a member of a mainline church (Anglican, RC, EO, Baptist, Presbyterian) would be told "you can't marry a second wife here". And only some AICs allow polygamy, and then only reluctantly. As the presiding bishop says (in effect), cultural realities are what they are.
Damien Thompson's remarks are the product of a man who is not as well informed on ecclesiastical matters as he should be, and who would be well advised to worry about the state of his own church rather than problems elsewhere.
Jane Smith (Pretoria, South Africa)
To be fair to Damian Thompson, if I read him aright, it's just a snark. It's not meant to be deep or accurate - he's just having a go. Even so, I think Jane should go to the Torygraph website and leave her thoughts on the matter as a comment.
ReplyDeletePS Mimi, I've always wanted to taste an oyster po-boy. A roast beef po-boy sounds good too, from the way you describe it.
ReplyDeleteWell Blogger, it's one fine mess you got me into. Blogger has begun to screen spam, and Jane's comment was in my spam folder. I'll have to remember to check my spam folder when the comments don't appear and mark them "not spam".
ReplyDeleteJane, your excellent comment is now posted twice. Thank you for weighing in. Yours is a voice that we need to hear.
Cathy, then Damian must take his licks for his snark. I know I do. :-)
ReplyDeleteA Louisiana oyster po-boy is to die for. Tom had a take-out oyster po-boy today. I had a plate of fried oysters, which were very good, too, along with tasty tartar sauce and coleslaw to go with them.
oh yes absolutely, he has to take licks for it, but he is writing on the understanding that his readers will realise his comments are in a sense careless just for the sake of it (I think).
ReplyDeleteI love tartare sauce and any seafood you can match with it. Your meal sounds extremely yummy.
That should read "take his licks" btw :-)
ReplyDeleteI do have a recipe for oyster po-boys. I should run it by you, Mimi, to see if it's the real thang.
The Po' Boy originated in London, not Louisiana, Cathy.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you're right, Lapin, but the only recipe I have offers it as a Louisiana tradition.
ReplyDeleteLapin, whence cometh your information about the po-boy originating in London?
ReplyDeleteBeen at a recital of 17th & 18th c English Baroque music. Sorry for the delay.
ReplyDelete"One recipe, for the peacemaker or oyster loaf, originated as a ubiquitous London street food long before the founding of New Orleans in 1718, and a scholarly consensus holds that this New Orleans classic arrived via the Thames. (See, e.g., Grigson 110: “It was taken to America, and became popular in New Orleans, where it acquired the endearing name of la mediatrice.”)" Quote from here. The recipe cited may be found on p 110 of Jane Grigson's English Food.
Lapin, could be. After the Louisiana Purchase, the invasion by the English began.
ReplyDeleteGerald Bodet is mentioned in the article. I wonder if he's the same person who was at Loyola when I was. I see he was still teaching in 2006, but in his online ratings, one of his students says about him, "He is also the cutest older man ever!!!!!!!"
I hope you enjoyed the concert. It sounds lovely.
It was very good. They had imported (from Up-North) an excellent bass viol player to supplement the home team. Sounds like Bodet could well be your guy. Is Bodet a common surname in those parts?
ReplyDeleteGood.
ReplyDeleteBodet is not that common a name around here. That's why I believe it may be the same person. He would have been teaching beyond the age of 70.