This actually hits the issue that I was just thinking about elsewhere: the modern atheist/agnostic obsession with the metaphysics of religious faith.
Metaphysics is really not an issue for Abraham; or Moses; or Elijah; or the prophets; or even for the apostles (mostly because it's a Greek idea; it didn't enter Xianity until there was a Xianity for it to enter). It's not an obsession of the desert fathers, or Augustine, or even Aquinas (well, he gets close). It's not a concern of the great Xian mystics.
But in modern day? It's the touchstone of faith, the bedrock of belief. First establish the bona fides of your metaphysics, and when you can't (as S.K. said, prove your existence, and I don't mean prove your identity), well: hah! The game's up!
Really? Why? Especially if my confession is not based on concern for my salvation (and the metaphysical fate of my metaphysical soul), but on what compassion I can show for others, what husbandry I can show for Creation?
Was MLK obsessed with the metaphysical questions of Xianity, or the practical application of Christ's teachings? And which would we want him to worry about?
Why? Especially if my confession is not based on concern for my salvation (and the metaphysical fate of my metaphysical soul), but on what compassion I can show for others, what husbandry I can show for Creation?
True, Rmj, but I quite understand why a cartoonist would focus on the metaphysical to make a humorous point - not because of professed Christians like you and me, but because of the Christians who give him what he wants.
The fundamentalists shout the loudest, and some of the folks outside the church see us as all the same.
The cartoonist visited last year and left this comment:
author said...
Thank you so much for linking to my comic these past few months. I'm always surprised, humbled, and delighted when religious people enjoy my stuff - the humour is sometimes so blunt and offensive. Maybe you guys really do operate on a higher plane!
Perhaps I'm helping to broaden his mind, but that's not why I publish the cartoons. They make me laugh. The day I can't enjoy a joke at my own expense will be a sad day, indeed.
Mimi--I hoped my comment wouldn't sound like criticism of the cartoon. I think it is the central weakness of modern common perceptions of religious faith: that it's all about the metaphysics. But then, as JCF points out, for some Christians, it is all about the metaphysics (which is why I mentioned soteriology the first time around.)
I've given up on distinguishing myself from the fundies on such issues, because it's a bootless task. I was just using the cartoon to crystallize some thoughts that had been bouncing around in my head that day. Coincidence of promptings of the Heilege Geist?
Modern fundamentalism is a reaction to 19th century thought, which did focus strongly on the metaphysics of theology (which school of thought culminated in the wholly discredited but still extant in non-professional circles "logical positivism"). So in the chicken-or-egg debate (which came first), the metaphysics of classical theology were rejected by non-theists and atheists first, and in reaction, the fundamentalists staked their claim on it.
Rmj, I did not think you were criticizing the cartoon. I should have put JCF's name before my second comment, because he told me previously that he does not like the cartoons and questioned why I post them.
So in the chicken-or-egg debate (which came first), the metaphysics of classical theology were rejected by non-theists and atheists first, and in reaction, the fundamentalists staked their claim on it.
If atheists say it, it must be wrong, or if they say it's wrong, then it must be right, or something.... ;-)
This actually hits the issue that I was just thinking about elsewhere: the modern atheist/agnostic obsession with the metaphysics of religious faith.
ReplyDeleteMetaphysics is really not an issue for Abraham; or Moses; or Elijah; or the prophets; or even for the apostles (mostly because it's a Greek idea; it didn't enter Xianity until there was a Xianity for it to enter). It's not an obsession of the desert fathers, or Augustine, or even Aquinas (well, he gets close). It's not a concern of the great Xian mystics.
But in modern day? It's the touchstone of faith, the bedrock of belief. First establish the bona fides of your metaphysics, and when you can't (as S.K. said, prove your existence, and I don't mean prove your identity), well: hah! The game's up!
Really? Why? Especially if my confession is not based on concern for my salvation (and the metaphysical fate of my metaphysical soul), but on what compassion I can show for others, what husbandry I can show for Creation?
Was MLK obsessed with the metaphysical questions of Xianity, or the practical application of Christ's teachings? And which would we want him to worry about?
Anyway.....
Why? Especially if my confession is not based on concern for my salvation (and the metaphysical fate of my metaphysical soul), but on what compassion I can show for others, what husbandry I can show for Creation?
ReplyDeleteTrue, Rmj, but I quite understand why a cartoonist would focus on the metaphysical to make a humorous point - not because of professed Christians like you and me, but because of the Christians who give him what he wants.
Brilliant, Rmj!
ReplyDelete...although I would amend
the modern atheist/agnostic obsession with the metaphysics of religious faith
It's a MODERN obsession, alright---but not just a "atheist/agnostic" obsession.
It's modern FUNDAMENTALIST (theist) obsession, first and foremost. And an atheist obsession in reaction.
[Fie on BOTH their houses! >:-/]
The fundamentalists shout the loudest, and some of the folks outside the church see us as all the same.
ReplyDeleteThe cartoonist visited last year and left this comment:
author said...
Thank you so much for linking to my comic these past few months. I'm always surprised, humbled, and delighted when religious people enjoy my stuff - the humour is sometimes so blunt and offensive. Maybe you guys really do operate on a higher plane!
Perhaps I'm helping to broaden his mind, but that's not why I publish the cartoons. They make me laugh. The day I can't enjoy a joke at my own expense will be a sad day, indeed.
JCF--I quite agree.
ReplyDeleteMimi--I hoped my comment wouldn't sound like criticism of the cartoon. I think it is the central weakness of modern common perceptions of religious faith: that it's all about the metaphysics. But then, as JCF points out, for some Christians, it is all about the metaphysics (which is why I mentioned soteriology the first time around.)
I've given up on distinguishing myself from the fundies on such issues, because it's a bootless task. I was just using the cartoon to crystallize some thoughts that had been bouncing around in my head that day. Coincidence of promptings of the Heilege Geist?
Ah, what's the difference?
Oh, wait, one pedantic correction:
ReplyDeleteModern fundamentalism is a reaction to 19th century thought, which did focus strongly on the metaphysics of theology (which school of thought culminated in the wholly discredited but still extant in non-professional circles "logical positivism"). So in the chicken-or-egg debate (which came first), the metaphysics of classical theology were rejected by non-theists and atheists first, and in reaction, the fundamentalists staked their claim on it.
So it goes.
Rmj, I did not think you were criticizing the cartoon. I should have put JCF's name before my second comment, because he told me previously that he does not like the cartoons and questioned why I post them.
ReplyDeleteSo in the chicken-or-egg debate (which came first), the metaphysics of classical theology were rejected by non-theists and atheists first, and in reaction, the fundamentalists staked their claim on it.
If atheists say it, it must be wrong, or if they say it's wrong, then it must be right, or something.... ;-)
If atheists say it, it must be wrong, or if they say it's wrong, then it must be right, or something.... ;-)
ReplyDeletePretty much. Parallels to Republicans who are for it until Obama is, and then they're agin it, are entirely apt.