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| Gay chef Tom Logan |
In what his friends claim is a softening of his stance on Popes, 38-year-old gay chef Tom Logan claimed he was fine with them as long as they didn’t do any Pope stuff.My friend Alison on Facebook made my day with the link above.
I confess I am puzzled by the glee over Pope Francis' latest statement on gays, as I don't see the pope offering hope for any change in practice. The pope's tone is more pastoral than previous popes, but that's about it.Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he [Pope Francis] reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not.
Pope Francis
He was responding to questions about whether there was a "gay lobby" in the Vatican.
"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge them?"
....
But Pope Francis said gay clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well," Pope Francis said in a wide-ranging 80-minute long interview with Vatican journalists.
From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Chastity and homosexualityPope Francis states that the Catechism explains the RCC's stance on same-sexuality very well. What then has changed? When I see a RC bishop or priest come out as gay and remain is his position, I'll believe the church has changed its position. When a candidate for ordination openly declares same-sex orientation and is allowed to continue the process to ordination, I will believe in change. We shall see.
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (My emphases)
Since I am no longer a member of the RCC, what the pope says doesn't matter very much to me one way or another. Still, I wonder because a good many gay friends of mine are pleased by the pope's words, and I do not understand the reasons for rejoicing.
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| Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby |
UPDATE: Speaking of the Archbishop of Canterbury:
Speaking to more than 6,000 people at a conference, Archbishop Welby said the passing of the Same Sex Marriage Act had been “crushing” for the church, but was something it needed to listen and respond to.I'm tempted to despair. Crushing for which church? Certainly not for the Church of England. With the opposition Justin saw in the House of Lords, how can he think he speaks for the church? Does he speak for all bishops, priests, and laity in the church? As my English Facebook friend said, "YOU are NOT God Archbishop! Surrender your arrogant ignorance now?" I didn't say that. I'm merely quoting my English friend.
"I spoke against it and voted against it but I listened and I heard the roar of revolution,” said the Archbishop, as he described listening to the debate on The Same Sex Marriage Act.
"It came not merely from those one would expect but from every side of the house, Conservatives, Liberals and Labour, of every age and sex.
"Those of us against the act were utterly crushed in the voting again, and again, and again.
"There were more people who turned out to vote than the House of Lords than experienced in World War Two.
"But popular opinion is not a case for changing obedience to God...."
Agreed. I don't feel the love for this Pope - or any Pope. He has the door firmly closed on women - excpet to say there isn't a developed deep theology of women in the church (and with all those penises, one wonders who will develop it?) I don't see anything to see here. Meh.
ReplyDeleteEileen, I didn't even discuss the church's position on women, since no one seems particularly gleeful about the pope's views.
DeleteIn my mind, women and homosexuals in the RCC are interrelated - how one is treated speaks volumes for the other. He didn't say much of anything - just "Who am I to judge?" which is actually the only response to give - it's God's place to judge and human's place to await that judgement and worry about the logs in our own eyes, etc.
ReplyDeleteBut for women, he said the issue has been decided by Pope John VI? (I think)...so the door is closed there.
DeleteEven as he judges. I agree that misogyny and homophobia are closely entwined. Homophobia may be rooted in misogyny. Chicken and egg, but maybe.
DeleteHere's a link to Mary Hunt's essay on this issue in Religion Dispatches: http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/7216/will_francis__statements_on_women_and_gays__make_a_mess__inside_the_church
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link, Eileen. I enjoyed Mary Hunt's essay very much. Here's a clickable link.
DeleteI definitely think misogyny and homophobia are tied up togther - men should be men, and women should be women. I think the perception of gay men as effeminate (whether true or not for the individual), is rooted in the abhorrence of the feminine. And for lesbians, it's the butchness - women should not be masculine, or it "devalues" masculinity. Bunch of hooey, but there you have it.
ReplyDeleteYou're either a manly man or an inferior person, which is laughable considering the numbers of gay priests and bishops in the RCC.
DeleteThis is a great "take" on the situation. While Francis seems to be a breath of fresh air one must remember that he is still a product of a church that has closed doors...(although if a door is closed it could be opened again) which he and his cohorts won't be opening. The entire Catholic Church is so wrong in what it does in so many ways - why fix on one comment by a Pope who has yet to show by action that things are changing. I doubt very much that things will change, even if he sits on a plain throne...it is still a throne.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Jay. Francis seems a bit less tone deaf than the two previous popes, and he prefers a more humble way of life, but I'm waiting to see what follows the nice words. We know he will not permit women's ordinations, nor will he allow priests to marry. We'll see what actions follow the kind words about LGTB persons.
DeleteSorry Francis, but you'll have to do a lot better than this. Old news Francis. Our Lord Himself tells us not to judge, so what are you really telling us? Little more than the work of a bunch of overpriced spin-doctors.
ReplyDeleteBottom line for me, is that in their centuries old determination to hold on to "power" or the illusion of power, the institutional Church remains reactive, rather than an active partner in the sacrament of the present moment. "Incapable of engaging with contemporary realities" (the working of the Holy Spirit in these times)- in an individual this would be diagnosed as a disorder: what does it say about an institution like the Church?
David, I agree that the operations of the Vatican are very much about power. Pope Francis is likely causing a few headaches to Vatican officials who may see him going too far off message. What does it say about the institution? Nothing much that is favorable, though I remind myself that on the ground, at the parish level, good work is still being done.
DeleteAnd it is that "powering it down to the parish level" that is the redeeming value. Trying to find the heart and mind of Christ. Or as a friend of mine put it--a secular mission. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, working for social justice, an end to bigotry & etc. Full of compassion, justice, mercy, love and redemption.
DeleteI ask her, "Should we start our own church?" She replies, "You can't slice it and dice it." I laugh because the message was sliced and diced when we received it.
So Pope Francis and ABC Welby can natter on and on all they want and on the ground the real message will be preached and if necessary we will use words.
Exactly, Bonnie. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The real work of spreading the Gospel is done on the local level.
DeleteThe proof is in the pudding: will gay men be welcomed to RC seminaries?
ReplyDeleteThe woman who was fired from teaching at an RC school because her partner's name appeared in her mother's obituary: she was certainly "judged", Bishop Francis. What do YOU say to her? [Having someone under your charge say "You're hired!" would be a nice start.]
[Don't get me started on the "Re ordaining women, the subject is closed" bit. Are you definitively ENDING all ecumenical discussions w/ churches that ordain women then? Because as long as there's even any PRETENSE that you're talking w/ them, ordaining women is most definitely OPEN for the Church of Rome! (And your ecumenical partners will never forget it!)]
As I have said elsewhere more than once, I want to see a RC bishop or priest come out as gay and remain in his position, I want to see a candidate for the priesthood declare openly that he's gay and move forward to ordination. That would be a change.
DeleteI agree with your post. Francis's remarks were blown waaaay out of proportion by the bubbleheaded journalists. No cause for celebration there, or even hope.
ReplyDeleteAnd Welby - OMG I read the whole Telegraph article and it's so plainly obvious he is talking out of both sides of his mouth at once. He is a terrible choice for ABC, and a babbler, a trimmer, a corporate man - in short, a JERK.
And what is this about him wanting to open a lending bank or something to compete with payday lenders? What the deuce does that have to do with the Church?? Of course, he's a former banker, so I guess the thought comes naturally, but you see how he has no clue, no concept of what is fitting, what is appropriate. What a useless idiot.
I hate to have to say that about anyone but this is a conspicuous and outrageous case of the Peter Principle - someone promoted above their level of competence.
Russ, that Justin Welby called out the pay-day loan sharks who prey on the poor is a good thing. Unfortunately, he learned later that the church had investments in the very company he named. He's offering help to establish credit unions to lend money to poor people at reasonable interest rates by giving them space to operate on church property, which is also a worthy effort
DeleteThough as someone said on Facebook: He seems to spend a certain amount of time of late being alternately "embarrassed", "furious" or "shocked". Gonna have to learn to chill.
Which made me laugh. With Justin's history as a man of the world, savvy businessman, you'd think he'd be a bit more prepared for what life sends his way.
Great essay. GM..you are fantastic. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Mark.
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