Our third Alpha lecture was titled "Why Did Jesus Die?" I'm still puzzling over exactly to whom this series is directed. I asked and the response was folks at different levels of knowledge of Christianity. Not at my level, that's for sure. Look, I'm not setting myself up above anyone, but I have a vague sense of just not liking Alpha, and I can't quite put my finger on why. Not much of a lively discussion followed.
After Nicky's lecture about Jesus taking all our sins and shame upon himself and dying on the cross so that our sins are forgiven, my question was, "Did Jesus have to die for God to forgive our sins?" No true answer came. Then I made my statement that I did not think God willed Jesus's death, nor did Jesus will his own death. He became incarnate to do the Father's will, which was to teach us by word and deed how to live our lives here on earth. In doing so he angered the authorities and was eventually put to death in a cruel and shameful way. In the days preceeding his death, he gave us an example of how we are to approach our own deaths. After he died, God raised him from the dead, and he lives today in the hearts and minds of those who choose to follow him as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The others seemed to accept that.
Oh, and we were lead in the "Come into my heart, Jesus" prayer again. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it.
Well, Mimi, there are (as usual) many ways to see the life, death and resurrection. As you probably guess, I'm closer to where you are than where Alpha is. The part that I might quibble with you on is that it wasn't just the authorities.
ReplyDeleteIt's the systemic world which says that this world is ours and not God's; which says that something other than Jesus is Lord. And for me, I am a part of that world on a day to day basis. That's why we need daily and weekly confession of sins. The death of Jesus, if it stopped just there, would prove that the authorities and all those things opposed to God's kingdom are the ultimate source of power. With the ressurection, God shows clearly that the creator/sustainer/redeemer is the ultimate source of power.
That said, just because I don't identify with the Alpha view, doesn't mean that it isn't a valuable way to see the death and resurrection for many people. I think we spend too much time trying to prove which view is right, when all that matters is what we do with our lives. Are we Christ followers or not?
Time for a dog biscuit.
Like you I am very "off-put" by the evangelical style. "Now ask Jesus into your heart." Gosh, if he's not there after all these years, what's the point of asking?
ReplyDeleteSt. Anselm wrote in Cur Deus Homo, "God did not, therefore, compel Christ to die; but he suffered death of his own will, not yielding up his life as an act of obedience, but on account of his obedience in maintaining holiness; for he held out so firmly in this obedience that he met death on account of it."
I think your answer falls a little short of the Nicene assertion that Christ died "for us." But I think that you are, in common with many others, steering away from a mechanical notion of substitutionary atonement often attributed to St. Anselm.
There is nothing wrong with our going back the basics, and even the most learned (or merely "book-learned") among us can profit from revisiting the elements of our faith.
However--the Cur Deus Homo, "Why God Became Man," by the greatest of the Archbishops of Canterbury, is a brief dialogue, not too long to finish in a few hours. There are abridged versions I've found on the web, but those abridgments, seeking to remove what is inessential to the argument, miss that what's going on isn't so much an argument as a meditation on divine love. And, of course, that the death of Jesus was something more than a miscarriage of justice doesn't detract from the importance of his teaching; each, to me, is an affirmation and vindication of the other.
Just another suggestion for your copius free time.
In the mean time, I am working on a suitable double entendre to answer your last. So far the wit slumbers.
Clumber, if Jesus had chosen to become incarnate today, he would come to a bad end. His teachings are the opposite of the worldly view; they're the worldly view turned upside down. I agree that it was not only the authorities but the systemic condition of the world.
ReplyDeleteIt might surprise some to know that I believe in the activity of the principalities and the powers in the present world, but not in a the-devil-made-me-do-it kind of way that would exempt us from responsibility for our actions.
You are correct; we can get together on how we apply the Gospels in our lives.
And you like dog biscuits. ;o) I've never tasted one myself.
Rick, Of course he died for us. Who was the Gospel for if not "for us"? The Good News is what got him into trouble.
ReplyDeleteI'm holding my breath for your witty double entendre response.
Do old dogs like dog biscuits?
ReplyDeleteIs the Pope German? Does a bear... well, you know...
Grandmére,
ReplyDeleteYou'll just have to approach it as an anthropologist would study an unfamiliar culture. If you pay attention, take notes, do your homework, and prepare for tests, soon, you will be as fluent in "evangelical" as me!
A-ha
ReplyDeleteSubstitutionary atonement in all its glory! That's the Alpha I know...
Mimi Grams, be careful with that and keep believing. Jesus conquered the Victory on the cross, but we are not guilty of his suffering and death.
I seriously think you should try to change these lectures for a good lunch together, with rice and beans (no pork, it's Lent). That would be much more fun!
Why don't you recommend your priest Via Media? It's another Christian Education package, but much less tied to this or that theological worldview and much more appropriate for an Anglican/Episcopal setting.
http://www.everyvoice.net/viamedia/
Blessings in Christ!
KJ, so it's evangelical? I guess that could explain my vague sense of not liking it. I keep asking, "Why am I here?" I'm there because I made a committment to stick it out for six weeks. It's become my Lenten penance. Unfamiliar? It's positively alien.
ReplyDeleteI truly do not understand why my rector thinks this is so good. And it's not that Nicky Gumbel is not a good person. I'm sure they're all good people.
KJ, how did you turn out so normal after all tose years of evangelical indoctrination?
Luiz, we do have Evensong and soup and sandwiches. That's the good part.
I'll mention Via Media to my rector. And you don't have to worry about my getting sucked in. I'm watching from a distance, just like talking to someone with very bad breath.
I think that many GLBT folk that leave Evangelical Land experience what "born again" really means. So, though I can still speak evangelical, for me, the "old" was left behind in one swift event and the "new" an adventure.
ReplyDeleteAnd now you're on an anthropoligical adventure. I hope you packed your mosquito repellant.
A good book to read about various theories about Jesus death (based on the Gospels and the Epistles) is "Problems with Atonement." Also I am reading Listening for the Heartbeat of God - by Newell. I think that would be a good antidote to Alpha. Also you might like our Theology Blog. Send me an email at akhfontaine at gmail.com
ReplyDeleteI still think, stating it in the simplest terms, that Jesus had to die to teach us what you note in the above post, Grandmere:
ReplyDeleteDeath is nothing at all.
KJ, come Thrusday, I'll be dressed and ready for my anthropological adventure, repellent included.
ReplyDeleteAnn, I'm taking note of the reading material, and I will email you.
Mark, you will see in the comments to the "Death is Nothing At All" post that Rev Sam hated it. I'm pleased that you approve. I'm tuned into Celtic spirituality, to the thin places, where one can experience the presence of the "clouds of witnesses". My theology may be a little bit off, however I say the Creeds honestly and without reservation, therefore I consider myself orthodox.
Mimi, I just got a book called "The Non-Violent Atonement" - haven't read it yet, but I think it's up our alley. Will let you know.
ReplyDeleteI think I may be straying away from orthodoxy a bit, but I can still say the Nicene Creed in unity with the people of God.
OK, Share Cropper, thanks. Another one to add to the list.
ReplyDeleteGrandmere,
ReplyDeleteMy priest both blessed and afflicted me with the book Principles of Christian Theology by John McQuarrie. One of the things he said about dogma is that it is a way of framing questions, of providing a definition of terms that provides a way forward for discussion, rather than a set (dead?) set of propositions. It is appropriate, he said further, to revisit these formulae to see if their symbolism still speaks the Truth they were intended to convey. In short, I think your theology's just fine, as it keeps the conversation going. :D
Mark, I agree with what your priest said about dogma, as long as the discussion stays open and the formulas may be revisited.
ReplyDeleteAs for my theology, well, thanks for saying it's fine. All I'll say for it is that it's my theology. It's definitely a work in progress.
As finite human beings how can we know or totally understand the mind of God?
Grace, we can't, of course. If we knew completely the mind of God, we would be God.
He chose to work this forgiveness and reconcilation by the cross.
I don't know about that. He chose to be obedient to the will of his Father, which was to teach by word and example the way we are to live our lives.
The way Jesus taught turned the world of his time upside down. The authorities were frightened by his teachings, and they threatened him. He continued in obedience to his father, knowing that he would likely be killed for his obedience. The cross was imposed on him by others.
He gave himself up intentionally to be the Way, the Truth, and the Life for us, and that way led to the cross.
"My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not what I want but what you want."
God the Father willed Jesus's obedience, and that obedience led to Jesus's death.
Maybe Alpha just needs to emphasize all of these aspects more.
With Alpha, the atonement theology is so deeply embedded that more than a few adjustments would be needed. It would have to be an entirely different course. It's not for me, unless I see something quite different in the second half.